<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: NIV11 review by Rodney Decker</title>
	<atom:link href="http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 24 May 2013 20:27:39 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Suzanne McCarthy</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-26087</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Suzanne McCarthy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2012 14:52:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-26087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I notice that in the article Decker has corrected his reporting of the text basis for Junia, noting that there is no instance of the name being accented as a masculine name. This is an improvement over the original form of the article. 

However, Decker does cite the NET bible note without correction on the issue of Junia. In footnote 93, he cites, 

&quot;When, however, an elative notion is found, ἐν (en) plus a personal plural dative is not uncommon (cf. Pss. Sol. 2:6). Although ἐν plus a personal dative does not indicate agency, in collocation with words of perception, (ἐν plus) dative personal nouns are often used to show the recipients. In this instance, the idea would then be &#039;well known to the apostles.&#039; See Burer and Wallace, &#039;Was Junia Really an Apostle? 76-91, who argue for the elative notion here.&quot;&quot;

It is this kind of misinformation which makes it impossible to have an unbiased conversation about gender. The text is clear that Pss. Solomon 2:6 does not contain the elative notion of episemos. It is deeply to be regretted that although the editors of the NET Bible are quite aware of this information, they are unwilling to edit this note.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I notice that in the article Decker has corrected his reporting of the text basis for Junia, noting that there is no instance of the name being accented as a masculine name. This is an improvement over the original form of the article. </p>
<p>However, Decker does cite the NET bible note without correction on the issue of Junia. In footnote 93, he cites, </p>
<p>&#8220;When, however, an elative notion is found, ἐν (en) plus a personal plural dative is not uncommon (cf. Pss. Sol. 2:6). Although ἐν plus a personal dative does not indicate agency, in collocation with words of perception, (ἐν plus) dative personal nouns are often used to show the recipients. In this instance, the idea would then be &#8216;well known to the apostles.&#8217; See Burer and Wallace, &#8216;Was Junia Really an Apostle? 76-91, who argue for the elative notion here.&#8221;"</p>
<p>It is this kind of misinformation which makes it impossible to have an unbiased conversation about gender. The text is clear that Pss. Solomon 2:6 does not contain the elative notion of episemos. It is deeply to be regretted that although the editors of the NET Bible are quite aware of this information, they are unwilling to edit this note.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: White Man</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-26001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[White Man]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 Mar 2012 22:54:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-26001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Other more formal uses might best be represented as &quot;gentlemen&quot; (e.g., Acts 14:15) or perhaps &quot;brothers&quot; (e.g., Acts 15:13, in which both NIV and ESV translate the phrase ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί as simply &quot;brothers&quot;).&quot;

It&#039;s obvious why this is. James was addressing &quot;the apostles and elders.&quot; It has apparently been conceded in the NIV that this was a male-only audience (but where was Junia?). But back in Acts 1:16, Peter, using the exact same Greek phrase, comes out in the NIV as calling them &quot;Brothers and Sisters.&quot; Why? well, apparently because some women were present (v. 14). But was Peter addressing the women, or just the men? Because what he was convening was a church council to elect a man from among them to take the apostolic seat vacated by Judas. Doesn&#039;t it make sense that the women were present, but not part of the voting quorum? As in 15:12, &quot;the whole assembly?&quot;

The NIV assumes a role of women in church leadership in chapter 1 that it turns around and denies them in chapter 15. This is not translation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Other more formal uses might best be represented as &#8220;gentlemen&#8221; (e.g., Acts 14:15) or perhaps &#8220;brothers&#8221; (e.g., Acts 15:13, in which both NIV and ESV translate the phrase ἄνδρες ἀδελφοί as simply &#8220;brothers&#8221;).&#8221;</p>
<p>It&#8217;s obvious why this is. James was addressing &#8220;the apostles and elders.&#8221; It has apparently been conceded in the NIV that this was a male-only audience (but where was Junia?). But back in Acts 1:16, Peter, using the exact same Greek phrase, comes out in the NIV as calling them &#8220;Brothers and Sisters.&#8221; Why? well, apparently because some women were present (v. 14). But was Peter addressing the women, or just the men? Because what he was convening was a church council to elect a man from among them to take the apostolic seat vacated by Judas. Doesn&#8217;t it make sense that the women were present, but not part of the voting quorum? As in 15:12, &#8220;the whole assembly?&#8221;</p>
<p>The NIV assumes a role of women in church leadership in chapter 1 that it turns around and denies them in chapter 15. This is not translation.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25981</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:51:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25981</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Mike, we are in the same ball park here - and we Brits understand that Americanism.

But perhaps a better analogy would be to a text about cricket, using words like &quot;wicket&quot; and &quot;bowled&quot; literally and in their technical cricketing senses. Such a text might be easily understood by any well brought up Englishman. But the only Americans who would understand it would be those who had had the privilege of being initiated into the wonderful game. That is not because the language is difficult, but because the text presupposes a basic understanding of cricket. Similarly, I can make a tentative suggestion that the New Testament, at least in part, would have been hard for most Gentiles to understand, not because the language is difficult but because a basic understanding of Jewish religion and culture is presupposed - but most Greek-speaking Jews would have had no problem understanding it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Mike, we are in the same ball park here &#8211; and we Brits understand that Americanism.</p>
<p>But perhaps a better analogy would be to a text about cricket, using words like &#8220;wicket&#8221; and &#8220;bowled&#8221; literally and in their technical cricketing senses. Such a text might be easily understood by any well brought up Englishman. But the only Americans who would understand it would be those who had had the privilege of being initiated into the wonderful game. That is not because the language is difficult, but because the text presupposes a basic understanding of cricket. Similarly, I can make a tentative suggestion that the New Testament, at least in part, would have been hard for most Gentiles to understand, not because the language is difficult but because a basic understanding of Jewish religion and culture is presupposed &#8211; but most Greek-speaking Jews would have had no problem understanding it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mike Sangrey</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25980</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Sangrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 22:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25980</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I agree that &lt;i&gt;&quot;It is the common language ennobled by an infusion of Jewish and Christian meanings,&quot;&lt;/i&gt; I would not finish that clause with &lt;i&gt;&quot;of words.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;  The &#039;meanings&#039; come from forms bigger than that.

But, more importantly, I don&#039;t think the analogy to an equivalent style being the religious language of today holds.  I think a better analogy would be to how British English is different than American English.  A Brit might say, &quot;We&#039;re in a sticky wicket,&quot; or &quot;I was bowled over.&quot;  We Americans &#039;get it&#039;, though our reference is not as full as the Brit&#039;s and the accuracy isn&#039;t quite there. (And, obviously, we spell better, leaving off all those extraneous &#039;u&#039; vowels. :-) )

The original audience wasn&#039;t the entire Greek world.  It was more constrained than that.  Though I also don&#039;t think it was constrained only to those within the Church such that one had to be &quot;on the inside&quot; in order to know what was being said.  In the text where Paul tries to make clear (though translations fail here) that clear communication is important, he refers to the outsider being convicted when the outsider hears what is being said (cf 1 Cor. 14).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I agree that <i>&#8220;It is the common language ennobled by an infusion of Jewish and Christian meanings,&#8221;</i> I would not finish that clause with <i>&#8220;of words.&#8221;</i>  The &#8216;meanings&#8217; come from forms bigger than that.</p>
<p>But, more importantly, I don&#8217;t think the analogy to an equivalent style being the religious language of today holds.  I think a better analogy would be to how British English is different than American English.  A Brit might say, &#8220;We&#8217;re in a sticky wicket,&#8221; or &#8220;I was bowled over.&#8221;  We Americans &#8216;get it&#8217;, though our reference is not as full as the Brit&#8217;s and the accuracy isn&#8217;t quite there. (And, obviously, we spell better, leaving off all those extraneous &#8216;u&#8217; vowels. <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  )</p>
<p>The original audience wasn&#8217;t the entire Greek world.  It was more constrained than that.  Though I also don&#8217;t think it was constrained only to those within the Church such that one had to be &#8220;on the inside&#8221; in order to know what was being said.  In the text where Paul tries to make clear (though translations fail here) that clear communication is important, he refers to the outsider being convicted when the outsider hears what is being said (cf 1 Cor. 14).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Berman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25976</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Berman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25976</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Marlowe argues that Deissman&#039;s allegations of the vulgarity of the Greek in the New Testament does not tell the whole story. Rather, the NT uses koine (as opposed to the revivalist formalism of the Attic style) Greek which is elevated in formality due to the presence of many Septuagint-inspired Hebraisms.

&quot;It is not as if its original readers would struggle through it with such difficulty as a modern schoolboy might experience in the reading of Shakespeare’s plays. The Greek of the New Testament is fundamentally the koine Greek of its time, not the Classical Greek of a bygone era. But it is not merely the common language of its era, and it does not represent the lowest and simplest form of the koine. It is the common language ennobled by an infusion of Jewish and Christian meanings for many words, and by many borrowings from the language of the Old Testament, chiefly from the Septuagint version. In short, it is ‘Biblical’ Greek. If we were to look for an example of an equivalent style in English, we would find it not on the street, but in religious writings, such as sermon collections, in which the style of the writer is much influenced by the language of traditional English Bibles, and in which words are often used in technical senses established by theological tradition.&quot;

http://www.bible-researcher.com/language-koine.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marlowe argues that Deissman&#8217;s allegations of the vulgarity of the Greek in the New Testament does not tell the whole story. Rather, the NT uses koine (as opposed to the revivalist formalism of the Attic style) Greek which is elevated in formality due to the presence of many Septuagint-inspired Hebraisms.</p>
<p>&#8220;It is not as if its original readers would struggle through it with such difficulty as a modern schoolboy might experience in the reading of Shakespeare’s plays. The Greek of the New Testament is fundamentally the koine Greek of its time, not the Classical Greek of a bygone era. But it is not merely the common language of its era, and it does not represent the lowest and simplest form of the koine. It is the common language ennobled by an infusion of Jewish and Christian meanings for many words, and by many borrowings from the language of the Old Testament, chiefly from the Septuagint version. In short, it is ‘Biblical’ Greek. If we were to look for an example of an equivalent style in English, we would find it not on the street, but in religious writings, such as sermon collections, in which the style of the writer is much influenced by the language of traditional English Bibles, and in which words are often used in technical senses established by theological tradition.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.bible-researcher.com/language-koine.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.bible-researcher.com/language-koine.html</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Link Roundup, March 20 &#124; Watch Heavenlyvideo</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25963</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Link Roundup, March 20 &#124; Watch Heavenlyvideo]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Mar 2012 13:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25963</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] BetterBibles brings up Rodney Decker&#8217;s deep review of the NIV 2011 update. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] BetterBibles brings up Rodney Decker&#8217;s deep review of the NIV 2011 update. [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Bradley J. Weidemann</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25956</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bradley J. Weidemann]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Mar 2012 16:35:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25956</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Bible does contain complicated ideas.  Therefore, there is no good reason to raise further barriers by using pompous vocabulary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Bible does contain complicated ideas.  Therefore, there is no good reason to raise further barriers by using pompous vocabulary.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dannii</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25927</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dannii]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:58:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25927</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[For those who are interested the full report on gender language is available at http://www.niv-cbt.org/wp-content/uploads/Collins-Report-Final.pdf

The report was produced by Collins dictionaries, and &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; by the NIV translation committee.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For those who are interested the full report on gender language is available at <a href="http://www.niv-cbt.org/wp-content/uploads/Collins-Report-Final.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.niv-cbt.org/wp-content/uploads/Collins-Report-Final.pdf</a></p>
<p>The report was produced by Collins dictionaries, and <i>not</i> by the NIV translation committee.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Dannii</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25926</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dannii]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2012 03:09:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25926</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;I don’t deny that the English language has changed, what I do deny, and deny very strongly, is that the language has changed so radically that a translation done as 1984 (or even 1971 in the case of the NASB) is now completely incomprehensibly and in need of a total overhaul.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
But no one said that the NIV84 is &lt;b&gt;completely&lt;/b&gt; incomprehensible, or that it needs a &lt;b&gt;total&lt;/b&gt; overhaul. Most of it is still very comprehensible, and most of it was not overhauled.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Yet, people who work in the field of Bible translations expect us to believe that people who read books that are more than 100 years old, can’t comprehend a Bible translation written in their own lifetime unless it is updated and revised. This is patronizing nonsense.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
By whose standard are we judging their comprehension? Everyone thinks they comprehend more than they really do. Good readers are quick to gloss over what they don&#039;t know, filling in the gaps from what they do know. It&#039;s not conscious. But we want better than that for the Bible, don&#039;t we? I want Bibles that truly use the language of the average adult native speaker of English. And because the language of the average adult native speaker of English has changed in the last 30 years, our translations need updates. If it was up to me we&#039;d be seeing daily updates of our translations (online of course.)

&lt;blockquote&gt;The worst thing that a writer can do is have low expectations for his audience, ‘oh no, this word has more than one syllable, no one will understand it, better substitute another word’.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There is no default translation - every single word has to be deliberately chosen by the translators. If you have two synonyms, one of which is widely used, and the other is obscure, why not choose the more widely used one? In my opinion &quot;Arrogance&quot; is a much better choice than &quot;Overweening pride&quot;.

And here are some stats:
http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=overweening%2Carrogance&amp;year_start=1800&amp;year_end=2000&amp;corpus=0&amp;smoothing=3
https://www.google.com/search?q=%22overweening%22&amp;tbs=bks:1,cdr:1,cd_min:1961,cd_max:2000&amp;lr=lang_en
I think it&#039;s interesting to note that a big proportion of those most recently published books with the word overweening are dictionaries... I wonder if there&#039;s a way to exclude those from Google Ngrams...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I don’t deny that the English language has changed, what I do deny, and deny very strongly, is that the language has changed so radically that a translation done as 1984 (or even 1971 in the case of the NASB) is now completely incomprehensibly and in need of a total overhaul.</p></blockquote>
<p>But no one said that the NIV84 is <b>completely</b> incomprehensible, or that it needs a <b>total</b> overhaul. Most of it is still very comprehensible, and most of it was not overhauled.</p>
<blockquote><p>Yet, people who work in the field of Bible translations expect us to believe that people who read books that are more than 100 years old, can’t comprehend a Bible translation written in their own lifetime unless it is updated and revised. This is patronizing nonsense.</p></blockquote>
<p>By whose standard are we judging their comprehension? Everyone thinks they comprehend more than they really do. Good readers are quick to gloss over what they don&#8217;t know, filling in the gaps from what they do know. It&#8217;s not conscious. But we want better than that for the Bible, don&#8217;t we? I want Bibles that truly use the language of the average adult native speaker of English. And because the language of the average adult native speaker of English has changed in the last 30 years, our translations need updates. If it was up to me we&#8217;d be seeing daily updates of our translations (online of course.)</p>
<blockquote><p>The worst thing that a writer can do is have low expectations for his audience, ‘oh no, this word has more than one syllable, no one will understand it, better substitute another word’.</p></blockquote>
<p>There is no default translation &#8211; every single word has to be deliberately chosen by the translators. If you have two synonyms, one of which is widely used, and the other is obscure, why not choose the more widely used one? In my opinion &#8220;Arrogance&#8221; is a much better choice than &#8220;Overweening pride&#8221;.</p>
<p>And here are some stats:<br />
<a href="http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=overweening%2Carrogance&#038;year_start=1800&#038;year_end=2000&#038;corpus=0&#038;smoothing=3" rel="nofollow">http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=overweening%2Carrogance&#038;year_start=1800&#038;year_end=2000&#038;corpus=0&#038;smoothing=3</a><br />
<a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=%22overweening%22&#038;tbs=bks:1,cdr:1,cd_min:1961,cd_max:2000&#038;lr=lang_en" rel="nofollow">https://www.google.com/search?q=%22overweening%22&#038;tbs=bks:1,cdr:1,cd_min:1961,cd_max:2000&#038;lr=lang_en</a><br />
I think it&#8217;s interesting to note that a big proportion of those most recently published books with the word overweening are dictionaries&#8230; I wonder if there&#8217;s a way to exclude those from Google Ngrams&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Optimus Prime</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2012/03/14/niv11-review-by-rodney-decker-10/#comment-25923</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Optimus Prime]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 19:01:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=5870#comment-25923</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Indeed, Optimus. And that implies that some of us do not. But the Bible is intended for everyone. Do you want it to be accessible to only “Some of us”?&quot;

The Bible is an inherently difficult book, you do no one any favors by pretending that it is otherwise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Indeed, Optimus. And that implies that some of us do not. But the Bible is intended for everyone. Do you want it to be accessible to only “Some of us”?&#8221;</p>
<p>The Bible is an inherently difficult book, you do no one any favors by pretending that it is otherwise.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
