The semantic change over time of the word sky in English is interesting, but has nothing to do with better bibles. It is one of those words you have borrowed from my forefathers, the vikings. There was a phonological shift in English long time ago which changed all sk- sequences to sh-, for instance, shy (which in Danish is sky). I have been told that all sk- sequences in English are borrowed from Danish. The word sky in Danish means cloud, ant that seems to have been the original sense in English, too. But over time, the sense shifted from cloud to sky, and this shift has apparently continued after the time of KJV.

I’m sure there is some link here with the idea of multiple heavens, referred to in the plural when no specific one of them is referred to. Here in the land of Dante I am reminded that the idea of multiple heavens is not just an ancient one. It was certainly still alive in the late Middle Ages, and is reflected also in modern literature, e.g. that of C.S. Lewis in “The Last Battle” and “Out of the Silent Planet”.

I noted this singular/plural distinction because in the (Turkic) language I was working with the usual word for “heaven” is the plural of the word for “sky”, although the singular can also be used for “heaven” – just as in Greek, I think.

Ivers, In Greek mythology, when humans look up from where they stand, they see the domains of the gods. In Philosophy in the Flesh, George Lakoff and Mark Johnson talk about embodied metaphors such as “self control” is “being on the ground.” Relative to that “being high” is “euphoria.” How we humans use language (whether we’re ancient Greeks, or Luke translating into Greek, or English users translating from Greek and blogging in the 21st century) is to make signs and meanings by embodied metaphors. I think we could conjecture all day what Luke must have surely meant by any particular word in its context. Joel does make a good point, nonetheless, that in Luke 2:14 ὑψίστοις isn’t to be necessarily understood as οὐρανος.

Luke (in 19:38b) makes the contrast when translating the crowd quoting Ps 118 of Jesus then adding:

εἰρήνη ἐν οὐρανῷ [ourano] καὶ δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις [hypsyistois]
(or “peace in the sky and brilliant fame in the highest place“).

You are not suggesting, are you, that οὐρανός corresponds to English “sky”?

English happens to have different words for sky and heaven. Greek and most other languages do not have such a distinction in words, so the Greek οὐρανός can mean sky or heaven according to context, and in Luke 19:38 all agree that it refers to heaven rather than sky. Luke uses οὐρανός 35 times, 4 of which refer to the sky.

One of the names of God in the OT is ‘elyon, (the high one) and this word if and only if it refers to God is normally translatied with τὸν ὕψιστον (the High One) in the LXX (I only found one exception).
The plural form ὕψιστοi (the High (Places)) refers to where God and the angels live. It is a synonym of οὐρανός (ouranos, heaven) which often occurs in plural without any difference in meaning, since the Hebrew word is in plural.
I agree that there is a slight difference in nuance. It is rare to find synonyms in any language which do not have a slight difference in nuance. Whether to keep that nuance in a translation, depends on your translation philosophy and your target audience.
Since Luke 2:14 has a Hebrew or Aramaic origin, the words need to be understood from the old Hebrew world view which had 3 heavens, and God resided in the highest one. One of the differences between different translation strategies is whether the translator expects and requires the readers to first learn the original wolrdview before they can fully understand the text or whether they do not require this of the readers.

Thanks for suggesting this:

But the English “men”… Jefferson used it, namely in the sense of “every human being”… Of course, if you were to translate Jefferson from the English used in his day to modern English, you would have to change “men” to “human beings” or “people”. I don’t think “mankind” or “humanity” would work. It might not work to say “men and women” either, because that seems to give the statement an unintended slant and an anachronistic focus.

Some time ago, I posted on what sense Jefferson might have had. Whether “mankind” or “humanity” works to update his English phrase “all men,” I’m not really sure – but I do know there have been a number of updates and translations of it — the first link in my post mentioned here in this paragraph is a link to a post where I list several of the translations and updates. Thanks again.

This is an interesting comment in and of itself. Jerome believed that this refered to some humans, Calvin to all humans, and now we are once again in Jeromes ballpark. Yes, they are different solutions, but do we truly believe in scientific progress as the vehicle of God’s revelation. I am quite sure many do. On one level, I might have to agree, but on another, I have inner doubts.

I undertand what you are saying technically but I can’t easily assimilate into my belief system the notion that the angels sang that God willed peace on earth to those humans who do his will, especially considering that it should be “to all people” in verse 10.

However, I will think on it. Thanks for the conversation.

Joel, The LXX makes a sharp difference in Genesis 14:22b:

“ἐκτενῶ τὴν χεῖρά μου πρὸς τὸν θεὸν τὸν ὕψιστον [hypsyston] ὃς ἔκτισεν τὸν οὐρανὸν [ouranon] καὶ τὴν γῆν [gEn]”

It’s the translation of Moses talking with the king of Sodom, on the one hand describing God in relation to where his raised hand must point (i.e., UP HIGH, for he calls God אֶל־יְהוָה אֵל) – while, on the other hand, describing God in relation to the sky and ground that he owns (i.e., שָׁמַיִם and אֶרֶץ)

Luke (in 19:38b) makes the contrast when translating the crowd quoting Ps 118 of Jesus then adding:

εἰρήνη ἐν οὐρανῷ [ourano] καὶ δόξα ἐν ὑψίστοις [hypsyistois]
(or “peace in the sky and brilliant fame in the highest place“).

Among early Greeks, the word Luke uses (in 2:14) for the angels’ song does not alway imply “the sky.” In Sophocles’s play “Women of Trachis” (1190), Heracles asks his son,

“Good, then do you know the summit of Oeta, Zeus’s sacred mountain?” Οἶσθ’ οὖν τὸν Οἴτης Ζηνὸς ὕψιστον [hypsyston] πάγον

Clearly, the reference is to a high peak and not to the sky.

One problem with just “heaven” here is that there are two Greek words: ouranos, the common word for “heaven” or “sky”; and upsistos, which we find here. Did the two words differ? I think so, though it’s hard to know exactly how. Two possibilities that come to mind (I have more detail here) are that upsistos reflects the Greek view of multiple heavens, and this is “seventh heaven” or the “highest heaven”; or upsistos is just a Hebraism for m’romim.