Comments on: CEB Lord’s Prayer

By: Cory Howell

Cory Howell — Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:51:41 +0000

As I read through the CEB translation of Matthew, I think my biggest problem thus far is their predilection for using language that is not forceful enough to carry the full meaning. The weaker reading of “the things we should have done,etc.” is a good example. I also am disappointed by the reading at the end of the Beatitudes, where “those who are persecuted” is rendered as “people whose lives are made miserable.” While it is no doubt true that persecuted people are made miserable by their suffering, the phrase “made miserable” in modern context often means something along the lines of “made upset.” How often have you heard someone say, “My boss is making my life miserable with all this paperwork,” or something like that?
Oh, and my two cents on “Human One”: it reminds me of a cheesy 50s sci-fi movie, wherein aliens with antennae say, “The human one’s behavior is not logical. He must be destroyed.”

By: Dave

Dave — Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:28:05 +0000

12 And forgive us the things we should have done but didn’t, just as we also forgive those who don’t treat us as they should.

I agree with other posters that the choice of words has watered down Christ’s intent…this will not be accepted by the large majority of the church.

By: LeRoy

LeRoy — Sat, 14 Nov 2009 02:40:42 +0000

Let us try again…
Mt 6:9 Then, in this way you pray: Our Father, who in the heavens, your name is consecrated ,––
Mt 6:10 Let your Kingdom come; as in heaven, let your will come into being, also on earth:
Mt 6:11 Give us, to-day; sufficient bread,
Mt 6:12 And give up our false steps, as, even we, give up our debtors [false steps];
Mt 6:13 And not to *carry forward into putting us to trial, but to draw us [rescue] from the wicked.
Note: see selections from Wilfed E. Major’s Ancient Greek frequency list 2
Also note with the συνεισφερω it would then be “contribute” into putting us to trial; which would be a misnomer considering that God does not tempt anyone.
The bottom line is, does God lead us into temptation? No.

By: Gary Simmons

Gary Simmons — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 04:44:11 +0000

Agreed: prayer language is itself an awkward thing in English. On a higher reading level, “may” would be better since it is not ambiguous as the first word of the sentence, but for this grade level “let” will have to suffice.

There’s also the issue of taking “as we forgive our debtors” as descriptive of the way Americans forgive debtors. Which is to say, “with interest.” Perhaps adding “as we certainly forgive our debtors” would better explain that Jesus expects us to actually forgive our debtors. I know that He says that just a few verses later explicitly, but the perfect tense ἀφήκαμεν kinda presupposes the certainty of the action (in this context), doesn’t it?

Again: I’m still a student, but I’m eager to learn.

By: Joel H.

Joel H. — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:18:00 +0000

Peter: I wonder if a middle ground isn’t possible (though nothing particularly good comes to mind). Maybe, “forgive our debts to you…” or “forgive our debt to God…” if an explanation is needed. (Also, I think the second part may have been literal — as if to say, “forgive our sin the way we forgive debt(or)s.”)

I wouldn’t go with “forgive us our debts,” the syntax of which will probably be unfamiliar to most.

By: Peter Kirk

Peter Kirk — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:42:57 +0000

Joel, I suspect a problem with “forgive us our debts” is that people will take it too literally, as referring to financial debts, especially in an age in which so many of us have lots of them we would like to have forgiven!

By: Joel H.

Joel H. — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 21:31:44 +0000

Regarding the Lord's Prayer:

12 And forgive us the things we should have done but didn't, just as we also forgive those who don't treat us as they should.

I think moving away from "debt" is a mistake, because the "debt" of sin is central to the point. (I'm also not sure that the notion is precisely "do to us what we do to others," but rather "do to us something which is metaphorically like what we do to others.") The topic is fresh is my mind because I just reviewed Gary A. Anderson's Sin: A History, and he makes the point (very convincingly) that sin as debt was an innovation. Furthermore, everyone knows what debt is, unlike some other ancient concepts. So the metaphor is readily available for anyone who would care to read it, regardless of reading level.

By: Jason A. Staples

Jason A. Staples — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 20:15:29 +0000

Good points RE: may/let, Gary. My concern with “may” is precisely that it requires someone “on a high enough reading level to know that ‘may’ can be used for prayers at all,” and that it is specifically “language of prayer” rather than more colloquial English.

By: Gary Simmons

Gary Simmons — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:56:10 +0000

I’m surprised nobody has commented on verse 11. What’s the meaning of epousios? Is it 1) today’s bread, 2) tomorrow’s bread, or 3) bread necessary for existence?

Concerning may vs. let:
Although “may” can be used to express a future possibility, the subjunctive idea, this is not the case when it is first in the sentence. Since it comes first, there is no ambiguity for an English reader (on a high enough reading level to know that “may” can be used for prayers at all). In short:
“Your kingdom may come” = it might happen
“May your kingdom come” = I want it to happen

“Let” is likewise ambiguous; it can either be used for permissiveness (jussive/imperative idea) or for prayer (optative idea).

The issue, really, is not which word is ambiguous. Both can be misunderstood as something other than optative. The reason for this is that prayers are not a part of English literature that most people are familiar with.

Concerning “things we should have done but didn’t”: I don’t think this really gets the full meaning across. I don’t have professional credentials — I took 3 years of Greek at Oklahoma Christian and have been studying on my own for 2 years — but I question restricting ofelema strictly to moral debts from inaction. If someone commits a sin that damages another, then the sinner owes restitution. Therefore, I see this Greek word as referring to both categories of sins; I don’t think it’s accurate to narrow it.

Wayne: thank you especially for the comment on synecdoche with “name.” Due to my limited education, I’ve never considered the use of synecdoche beyond a physical parts-to-whole reference, such as “shall I not surely drink this cup?” However, the Lord’s Prayer makes more sense now. Reverence for God and the spread of His reign/kingdom would be parallels, then.

By: Jason A. Staples

Jason A. Staples — Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:52:28 +0000

Charles, you’re right about “su” vs. “sou,” but the extended variant of Matt 6:13 (the version with the “kingdom and power”) has “sou,” hence “thine” rather than “thou.”