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	<title>Comments on: CEB Matthew is at the press</title>
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	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Downie</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15473</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Downie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Nov 2009 11:29:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15473</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t even like sliding scales. I much prefer to simply talk about the purpose of a translation as everything revolves around that. But anyway, congrats to the CEB team and I look forward to reading their work.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t even like sliding scales. I much prefer to simply talk about the purpose of a translation as everything revolves around that. But anyway, congrats to the CEB team and I look forward to reading their work.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15453</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 17:45:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15453</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jonathan wrote:

&lt;i&gt;Also, please tell me that you will avoid using worn out phrases like “formal equivalence,” “literal/free translation” or even “dynamic equivalence.” In most modern professional translation work, these phrases are seen as only being useful for very small chunks of text. It is impossible to have an entire Bible translation that is a “literal translation” or a “free rendering.”&lt;/i&gt;

I agree, Jonathan. I would like to see all English Bible version advertising and documentation drop these labels for the reason you have said. No single Bible version is one or the other. There is always a combination of approaches.

I personally prefer talking about degrees of naturalness and degrees of grammatical wordings. Of course, there&#039;s also the matter of accuracy, which is a separate issue, unrelated to how closely a translation mimics the forms of the biblical language texts. A translation can import syntax from the biblical languages to English and so cause inaccuracy in communicating the meaning of the original texts. The versions which most accurately communicate the meaning of the forms of the original texts are those which express that meaning using only English syntax and lexical combinations and, obviously, are exegetically accurate, as well.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan wrote:</p>
<p><i>Also, please tell me that you will avoid using worn out phrases like “formal equivalence,” “literal/free translation” or even “dynamic equivalence.” In most modern professional translation work, these phrases are seen as only being useful for very small chunks of text. It is impossible to have an entire Bible translation that is a “literal translation” or a “free rendering.”</i></p>
<p>I agree, Jonathan. I would like to see all English Bible version advertising and documentation drop these labels for the reason you have said. No single Bible version is one or the other. There is always a combination of approaches.</p>
<p>I personally prefer talking about degrees of naturalness and degrees of grammatical wordings. Of course, there&#8217;s also the matter of accuracy, which is a separate issue, unrelated to how closely a translation mimics the forms of the biblical language texts. A translation can import syntax from the biblical languages to English and so cause inaccuracy in communicating the meaning of the original texts. The versions which most accurately communicate the meaning of the forms of the original texts are those which express that meaning using only English syntax and lexical combinations and, obviously, are exegetically accurate, as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15452</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:59:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15452</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indeed, Joel. I was just trying to cut the grounds from under the formalistic argument that &quot;contractions were not used in the Greek or Hebrew&quot; and so shouldn&#039;t be in a translation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, Joel. I was just trying to cut the grounds from under the formalistic argument that &#8220;contractions were not used in the Greek or Hebrew&#8221; and so shouldn&#8217;t be in a translation.</p>
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		<title>By: Joel H.</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15451</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel H.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 14:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15451</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;B&gt;Peter:&lt;/b&gt;  Regarding contractions, it&#039;s possible --- even likely --- that in Greek contractions were of a different register than they are in English.  Even just looking at English, I think that &quot;I&#039;ll&quot; (for &quot;I will&quot;) is less informal then &quot;Tom&#039;ll&quot; (for &quot;Tom will&quot;), even though both are standard spoken (American) English.

&lt;B&gt;Paul:&lt;/b&gt;  I&#039;ll also look forward to a public sample of the translation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Peter:</b>  Regarding contractions, it&#8217;s possible &#8212; even likely &#8212; that in Greek contractions were of a different register than they are in English.  Even just looking at English, I think that &#8220;I&#8217;ll&#8221; (for &#8220;I will&#8221;) is less informal then &#8220;Tom&#8217;ll&#8221; (for &#8220;Tom will&#8221;), even though both are standard spoken (American) English.</p>
<p><b>Paul:</b>  I&#8217;ll also look forward to a public sample of the translation.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Franklyn</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15450</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Franklyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 13:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15450</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joel Green is editing Luke-Acts right now. The litmus test is clouded with ambiguity, though. The text could mean that a passing cloud obscured Jesus (which might be the naturalist explanation, in which miracles are explained with natural forces). Or it might mean that Jesus was floating upward above a cloud, as if the cloud is taking him upward. We&#039;ve seen both visions imagined in popular film. Either way, the interpretation is influenced by 2 Kings 2:11, where Elijah ascends into heaven through a meterological event (whirlwind). Perhaps Jesus departs with help of a more peaceful cloud. So this is why we have exegetes and linguists looking at a translation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel Green is editing Luke-Acts right now. The litmus test is clouded with ambiguity, though. The text could mean that a passing cloud obscured Jesus (which might be the naturalist explanation, in which miracles are explained with natural forces). Or it might mean that Jesus was floating upward above a cloud, as if the cloud is taking him upward. We&#8217;ve seen both visions imagined in popular film. Either way, the interpretation is influenced by 2 Kings 2:11, where Elijah ascends into heaven through a meterological event (whirlwind). Perhaps Jesus departs with help of a more peaceful cloud. So this is why we have exegetes and linguists looking at a translation.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Nicholls</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15449</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Michael Nicholls]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 12:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15449</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[How does CEB translate Acts 1:9? I think I&#039;m going to use it as my new litmus test for Englishability.

&lt;b&gt;NIV: a cloud hid him from their sight

NASB: a cloud received Him out of their sight

Message: disappeared in a cloud

ESV: a cloud took him out of their sight

HCSB: a cloud received Him out of their sight&lt;/b&gt;

Good job Eugene Peterson for getting this one right.

&quot;The airplane flew low over the houses, then a cloud received it out of my sight.&quot; Really?

I&#039;m echoing Wayne sentiments, in that it&#039;s hard to pick up these strange sound Bible English terms/phrases unless you&#039;ve had some practice untraining your ears from years of Biblish.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How does CEB translate Acts 1:9? I think I&#8217;m going to use it as my new litmus test for Englishability.</p>
<p><b>NIV: a cloud hid him from their sight</p>
<p>NASB: a cloud received Him out of their sight</p>
<p>Message: disappeared in a cloud</p>
<p>ESV: a cloud took him out of their sight</p>
<p>HCSB: a cloud received Him out of their sight</b></p>
<p>Good job Eugene Peterson for getting this one right.</p>
<p>&#8220;The airplane flew low over the houses, then a cloud received it out of my sight.&#8221; Really?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m echoing Wayne sentiments, in that it&#8217;s hard to pick up these strange sound Bible English terms/phrases unless you&#8217;ve had some practice untraining your ears from years of Biblish.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15448</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 11:05:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, actually quite a lot of contractions are used in the Greek of the New Testament, although there tends to be wide variation between manuscripts on these matters. I am thinking of &lt;i&gt;crasis&lt;/i&gt; like &lt;i&gt;kago&lt;/i&gt; for &lt;i&gt;kai ego&lt;/i&gt;, and of abbreviated forms of prepositions like like &lt;i&gt;kat&#039;&lt;/i&gt; for &lt;i&gt;kata&lt;/i&gt;, often but not always used before a vowel. Indeed I just checked the UBS NT text and found 1237 occurrences of the apostrophe, generally if not always marking a contracted preposition. I have no easy way of finding all cases of &lt;i&gt;crasis&lt;/i&gt;, but in the NT there are 126 cases of kappa-alpha with the &lt;i&gt;crasis&lt;/i&gt; mark indicating contraction of &lt;i&gt;kai&lt;/i&gt; with a following word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, actually quite a lot of contractions are used in the Greek of the New Testament, although there tends to be wide variation between manuscripts on these matters. I am thinking of <i>crasis</i> like <i>kago</i> for <i>kai ego</i>, and of abbreviated forms of prepositions like like <i>kat&#8217;</i> for <i>kata</i>, often but not always used before a vowel. Indeed I just checked the UBS NT text and found 1237 occurrences of the apostrophe, generally if not always marking a contracted preposition. I have no easy way of finding all cases of <i>crasis</i>, but in the NT there are 126 cases of kappa-alpha with the <i>crasis</i> mark indicating contraction of <i>kai</i> with a following word.</p>
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		<title>By: Jonathan Downie</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15447</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jonathan Downie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 08:45:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15447</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I would say that the use of contractions should depend on the purpose and audience of the translation. If it is aimed at use in churches, then the specific type of church and the socioeconomic status of the churchgoer will need to be taken into account. However, for normal reading, contractions are probably more natural.

I would really like to see Bible translators be more specific about their primary target audience (and &quot;churches&quot; is not specific enough) and the intended use of the translation. This gives people a better idea of how, when and where the translation can/should be used. Also, please tell me that you will avoid using worn out phrases like &quot;formal equivalence,&quot; &quot;literal/free translation&quot; or even &quot;dynamic equivalence.&quot; In most modern professional translation work, these phrases are seen as only being useful for very small chunks of text. It is impossible to have an entire Bible translation that is a &quot;literal translation&quot; or a &quot;free rendering.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would say that the use of contractions should depend on the purpose and audience of the translation. If it is aimed at use in churches, then the specific type of church and the socioeconomic status of the churchgoer will need to be taken into account. However, for normal reading, contractions are probably more natural.</p>
<p>I would really like to see Bible translators be more specific about their primary target audience (and &#8220;churches&#8221; is not specific enough) and the intended use of the translation. This gives people a better idea of how, when and where the translation can/should be used. Also, please tell me that you will avoid using worn out phrases like &#8220;formal equivalence,&#8221; &#8220;literal/free translation&#8221; or even &#8220;dynamic equivalence.&#8221; In most modern professional translation work, these phrases are seen as only being useful for very small chunks of text. It is impossible to have an entire Bible translation that is a &#8220;literal translation&#8221; or a &#8220;free rendering.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15446</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15446</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Paul, I&#039;m always happy to check for grammatical and natural English for no pay. I have seen how difficult it is for Bible translation teams to make those checks, even with checking groups, before publication. And after publication it becomes very expensive to change things that some might consider &quot;insignificant&quot; but which really do make a difference as to whether or not a translation is grammatical and natural. But grammatical I am thinking of examples which appear in many English versions such as:

&quot;The rich is destined for punishment.&quot;

No, that&#039;s not grammatical in English, although the original Hebrew it is attempting to translate was grammatical. In English an adjective substantival like &quot;the rich&quot; only is plural and so must take plural subject-verb agreement. If the Hebrew adjective is singular, then we have to include some English &quot;filler&quot; word to make the English grammatical, such as:

&quot;The rich one is destined for punishment.&quot;

or

&quot;The rich person is destined for punishment.&quot;

Few reading groups are able to catch such grammatical problems. Many stylists, especially if they are familiar with Bible English do not catch this kind of ungrammatical English. It requires English scholars or linguists who are committed to checking so meticulously to ensure that a translation has only grammatical English. It requires a great deal of self-discipline not to approve Bible English which is ungrammatical in standard dialects of English.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Paul, I&#8217;m always happy to check for grammatical and natural English for no pay. I have seen how difficult it is for Bible translation teams to make those checks, even with checking groups, before publication. And after publication it becomes very expensive to change things that some might consider &#8220;insignificant&#8221; but which really do make a difference as to whether or not a translation is grammatical and natural. But grammatical I am thinking of examples which appear in many English versions such as:</p>
<p>&#8220;The rich is destined for punishment.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, that&#8217;s not grammatical in English, although the original Hebrew it is attempting to translate was grammatical. In English an adjective substantival like &#8220;the rich&#8221; only is plural and so must take plural subject-verb agreement. If the Hebrew adjective is singular, then we have to include some English &#8220;filler&#8221; word to make the English grammatical, such as:</p>
<p>&#8220;The rich one is destined for punishment.&#8221;</p>
<p>or</p>
<p>&#8220;The rich person is destined for punishment.&#8221;</p>
<p>Few reading groups are able to catch such grammatical problems. Many stylists, especially if they are familiar with Bible English do not catch this kind of ungrammatical English. It requires English scholars or linguists who are committed to checking so meticulously to ensure that a translation has only grammatical English. It requires a great deal of self-discipline not to approve Bible English which is ungrammatical in standard dialects of English.</p>
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		<title>By: Paul Franklyn</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/10/31/ceb-matthew-is-at-the-press/#comment-15443</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Franklyn]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3645#comment-15443</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello better bible bloggers.  I hear you about feedback (as project director) on the Common English Bible. Old school translation would be to place 20 men (emphasis on gender) in a secluded room at a seminary for 15 years.  But Bible translation has indeed moved from a place to many places, including cyberplaces.

We also did not replicate the NET workflow, which is more of a wiki. That experiment had its novelty and identity (soial location), and it seems to serve conservative Protestants with academic needs because of the notes. 

The CEB involves over 500 readers (convened by paid leaders in focus groups) located in 13 denominations, who send in feedback embedded on documents to our project web site.  The difficult part of the development process is keeping the workflow linear enough to avoid &quot;loops&quot; that delay a project for years. In fact, the old school approach took 10 to 17 years for a major translation to complete, due to systemic looping. The RSV was in development from 1934-1951, and the NRSV from 1974 to 1989.  The NIV from the mid 1960s (indeed started by one denomination, CRC) until 1978/1984. The Catholic NAB revision might be aiming for a record 20-something years of development. 

One sort of loop is where two translators or editors go back and forth correcting each other, without closure. Each year of delay can cost a translation project half a million dollars in expenses, in part because staff are be hired to work on products and promotion, and then wait for closure.

Matthew will likely be available for PDF download tomorrow at www.commonenglish.com, which is the official web site for the emerging translation. Just a splash page for now, more to come. 

We do want your feedback, with a link for comments. For example, this translation uses contractions. With some exceptions based on social location, nearly all readers  appreciate contractions once they remember that they don&#039;t need to use a special ecclesisial voice register when reading the Bible aloud.  Last night after a presentation, a denominational official (not my own) mentioned to me that contractions were not used in the Greek or Hebrew. By analogy, one could say yes, perhaps they were. In Hebrew pronouns are usually contracted on the ends of nouns or verbs. In Greek pronouns are often embedded in the conjugation of verbs. Of course this kind of compressed syntax is not identical to how we contract pronouns or negations in English, but the analogy seems to be a parallel. What do you think?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello better bible bloggers.  I hear you about feedback (as project director) on the Common English Bible. Old school translation would be to place 20 men (emphasis on gender) in a secluded room at a seminary for 15 years.  But Bible translation has indeed moved from a place to many places, including cyberplaces.</p>
<p>We also did not replicate the NET workflow, which is more of a wiki. That experiment had its novelty and identity (soial location), and it seems to serve conservative Protestants with academic needs because of the notes. </p>
<p>The CEB involves over 500 readers (convened by paid leaders in focus groups) located in 13 denominations, who send in feedback embedded on documents to our project web site.  The difficult part of the development process is keeping the workflow linear enough to avoid &#8220;loops&#8221; that delay a project for years. In fact, the old school approach took 10 to 17 years for a major translation to complete, due to systemic looping. The RSV was in development from 1934-1951, and the NRSV from 1974 to 1989.  The NIV from the mid 1960s (indeed started by one denomination, CRC) until 1978/1984. The Catholic NAB revision might be aiming for a record 20-something years of development. </p>
<p>One sort of loop is where two translators or editors go back and forth correcting each other, without closure. Each year of delay can cost a translation project half a million dollars in expenses, in part because staff are be hired to work on products and promotion, and then wait for closure.</p>
<p>Matthew will likely be available for PDF download tomorrow at <a href="http://www.commonenglish.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.commonenglish.com</a>, which is the official web site for the emerging translation. Just a splash page for now, more to come. </p>
<p>We do want your feedback, with a link for comments. For example, this translation uses contractions. With some exceptions based on social location, nearly all readers  appreciate contractions once they remember that they don&#8217;t need to use a special ecclesisial voice register when reading the Bible aloud.  Last night after a presentation, a denominational official (not my own) mentioned to me that contractions were not used in the Greek or Hebrew. By analogy, one could say yes, perhaps they were. In Hebrew pronouns are usually contracted on the ends of nouns or verbs. In Greek pronouns are often embedded in the conjugation of verbs. Of course this kind of compressed syntax is not identical to how we contract pronouns or negations in English, but the analogy seems to be a parallel. What do you think?</p>
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