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	<title>Comments on: NIV &#8220;flesh&#8221; or &#8220;sinful nature&#8221;</title>
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	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
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		<title>By: iver larsen</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[iver larsen]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Feb 2010 07:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Douglass Moo is an excellent theologian with a lot of experience in Romans. His paper is not surprisingly aimed mainly at theologians, and he is writing as a theologian, not as a linguist.
In the paper he divides the semantic field of SARX into 5 senses (although BAGD has 7 senses.) He then says:
&quot;The problem with SARX is not only that it is a technical term, but also...a polymorphous term.&quot;
He does not give any reasons for why he considers SARX a technical term. Maybe that is a common theological assumption or axiom?
I would expect a technical term to have only one sense, so I find his statement a contradiction. Maybe he meant to say that his sense 5 (the &quot;ethical&quot; or &quot;theologically most debated&quot; sense) is a technical term, but even so, I would not agree. But I come to the text more as a linguist than a theologian. In my view, many theologians are still caught up in the concept that meaning is to be crammed into the individual words, and therefore a translation should focus on the word level and be as word-concordant as possible. I am influenced by Relevance Theory and put much more weight on the context, including extra-textual context, so that a sentence is &quot;living&quot; unit where each word contributes something to the overall sense. So, if I as a translator cannot find one particular word or phrase that covers the various nuances of the original, then I can put some of these nuances into other words in the sentence, striving to get the overall meaning across to my intended audience, without being hung up on concordance issues.
Even the (modified literal) TNIV has used 28 different words or expressions to render SARX, says Moo. I have not checked how many different words they have used to translate SARX in sense 5, and Moo doesn&#039;t tell us.
So, when I translate Romans, I don&#039;t choose between &quot;sinful nature&quot;, &quot;human nature&quot; or &quot;flesh&quot;, but I choose for each context what I think best translates the overall meaning in view of Paul&#039;s general theology. (Because of this last phrase, a translator is necessarily also a theologian.)
I think it is matter of focus and approach. I am more of a linguistically trained translator than a theologian, others are more theologians than linguistically trained translators.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Douglass Moo is an excellent theologian with a lot of experience in Romans. His paper is not surprisingly aimed mainly at theologians, and he is writing as a theologian, not as a linguist.<br />
In the paper he divides the semantic field of SARX into 5 senses (although BAGD has 7 senses.) He then says:<br />
&#8220;The problem with SARX is not only that it is a technical term, but also&#8230;a polymorphous term.&#8221;<br />
He does not give any reasons for why he considers SARX a technical term. Maybe that is a common theological assumption or axiom?<br />
I would expect a technical term to have only one sense, so I find his statement a contradiction. Maybe he meant to say that his sense 5 (the &#8220;ethical&#8221; or &#8220;theologically most debated&#8221; sense) is a technical term, but even so, I would not agree. But I come to the text more as a linguist than a theologian. In my view, many theologians are still caught up in the concept that meaning is to be crammed into the individual words, and therefore a translation should focus on the word level and be as word-concordant as possible. I am influenced by Relevance Theory and put much more weight on the context, including extra-textual context, so that a sentence is &#8220;living&#8221; unit where each word contributes something to the overall sense. So, if I as a translator cannot find one particular word or phrase that covers the various nuances of the original, then I can put some of these nuances into other words in the sentence, striving to get the overall meaning across to my intended audience, without being hung up on concordance issues.<br />
Even the (modified literal) TNIV has used 28 different words or expressions to render SARX, says Moo. I have not checked how many different words they have used to translate SARX in sense 5, and Moo doesn&#8217;t tell us.<br />
So, when I translate Romans, I don&#8217;t choose between &#8220;sinful nature&#8221;, &#8220;human nature&#8221; or &#8220;flesh&#8221;, but I choose for each context what I think best translates the overall meaning in view of Paul&#8217;s general theology. (Because of this last phrase, a translator is necessarily also a theologian.)<br />
I think it is matter of focus and approach. I am more of a linguistically trained translator than a theologian, others are more theologians than linguistically trained translators.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16591</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 22:01:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16591</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Gary, you also asked an interesting question. Yes, Genesis 6:3 could well be part of the background to Paul&#039;s usage, as &lt;i&gt;basar&lt;/i&gt; there does seem to be on the dividing line between &quot;human nature&quot; and &quot;sinful nature&quot; just like Paul&#039;s use of &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt;. I wonder if anyone has worked on this possible background.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gary, you also asked an interesting question. Yes, Genesis 6:3 could well be part of the background to Paul&#8217;s usage, as <i>basar</i> there does seem to be on the dividing line between &#8220;human nature&#8221; and &#8220;sinful nature&#8221; just like Paul&#8217;s use of <i>sarx</i>. I wonder if anyone has worked on this possible background.</p>
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		<title>By: CD-Host</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16590</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[CD-Host]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:54:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16590</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John --
Did you read the earlier posts in this thread.  I agree with Peter, he is using the term in a technical sense.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-14956&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;earlier post on usage&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John &#8211;<br />
Did you read the earlier posts in this thread.  I agree with Peter, he is using the term in a technical sense.  <a href="http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-14956" rel="nofollow">earlier post on usage</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16589</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16589</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, as I replied on the other post, that’s an excellent first question which cuts to the heart of the matter. If for Paul &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt; was “a vivid metaphor”, that might justify an English rendering “flesh”.

I think the test is really whether Paul expected his readers to understand in advance what he meant by &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt;. If he didn&#039;t, but intended his meaning to be understood from the context, then I guess we can use a word intended to be understood from the context - although we need to make sure we have translated the context accurately and clearly (and we also need people to read that context, not to read verses or short passages out of context). Alternatively, if this was a dead metaphor or a technical term which Paul expected his audience to be familiar with already, then we need to render his term in a way that the audience for the translation is familiar with already - and as your pastor realises &quot;flesh&quot; is not such a rendering even in an ESV-using church.

My own suspicion is that &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt; was more of a technical term than a &quot;vivid metaphor&quot;, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, as I replied on the other post, that’s an excellent first question which cuts to the heart of the matter. If for Paul <i>sarx</i> was “a vivid metaphor”, that might justify an English rendering “flesh”.</p>
<p>I think the test is really whether Paul expected his readers to understand in advance what he meant by <i>sarx</i>. If he didn&#8217;t, but intended his meaning to be understood from the context, then I guess we can use a word intended to be understood from the context &#8211; although we need to make sure we have translated the context accurately and clearly (and we also need people to read that context, not to read verses or short passages out of context). Alternatively, if this was a dead metaphor or a technical term which Paul expected his audience to be familiar with already, then we need to render his term in a way that the audience for the translation is familiar with already &#8211; and as your pastor realises &#8220;flesh&#8221; is not such a rendering even in an ESV-using church.</p>
<p>My own suspicion is that <i>sarx</i> was more of a technical term than a &#8220;vivid metaphor&#8221;, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16588</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 21:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16588</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here’s a question I asked on another post: Did first-century hearers think, “‘Flesh’—that’s a vivid metaphor,” or did they just think “Sinful nature,” in the sense that sarx was just a technical term?

I realize this is separate from the question of communicative accuracy. If a majority of the target audience will not understand ‘flesh’, it might be a poor translation anyway. )My pastor is currently preaching a sermon on Romans 8, and since the church uses the ESV, he has to keep stressing that ‘flesh’ means more than it seems in English. He keeps reminding the congregation that it means ‘sinful nature’.

So the second question is, if &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt; is a metaphor, is it possible to translate it literally and still convey the same meaning? In other words, is the metaphorical meaning Greek speakers would have thought of for &lt;i&gt;sarx&lt;/i&gt; the same as the metaphorical meaning English speakers think of for ‘flesh’?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here’s a question I asked on another post: Did first-century hearers think, “‘Flesh’—that’s a vivid metaphor,” or did they just think “Sinful nature,” in the sense that sarx was just a technical term?</p>
<p>I realize this is separate from the question of communicative accuracy. If a majority of the target audience will not understand ‘flesh’, it might be a poor translation anyway. )My pastor is currently preaching a sermon on Romans 8, and since the church uses the ESV, he has to keep stressing that ‘flesh’ means more than it seems in English. He keeps reminding the congregation that it means ‘sinful nature’.</p>
<p>So the second question is, if <i>sarx</i> is a metaphor, is it possible to translate it literally and still convey the same meaning? In other words, is the metaphorical meaning Greek speakers would have thought of for <i>sarx</i> the same as the metaphorical meaning English speakers think of for ‘flesh’?</p>
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		<title>By: Gary Simmons</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16587</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gary Simmons]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Feb 2010 19:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16587</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to ask: how does &lt;i&gt;basor&lt;/i&gt; in Genesis 6:2 relate to this discussion? Note that the NIV translates this as &quot;mortal&quot; with &quot;corrupt&quot; as an alternate. Both meanings are found in BDB&#039;s entry for this word.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to ask: how does <i>basor</i> in Genesis 6:2 relate to this discussion? Note that the NIV translates this as &#8220;mortal&#8221; with &#8220;corrupt&#8221; as an alternate. Both meanings are found in BDB&#8217;s entry for this word.</p>
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		<title>By: Cherie Goodpasture</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-16157</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cherie Goodpasture]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 Jan 2010 06:58:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-16157</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Down with the &quot;sinful nature&quot; and back to the &quot;flesh&quot;.  Anything other than that is wrong.  It gives people excuse to be pious christians who don&#039;t take responsibility for their actions.  The body or flesh is a vessel to be filled with a spirit.  That spirit originally was the breath of Almighty God.  We choose to fill it with other things.  Now we have the advantage of the cross in which Christ conquered the flesh in the flesh and the permanant in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.  So if you are still blaming things on your sin nature...get over it!  Repent, renew your mind and work on being free!
Now if we could only get the words &quot;wicked&quot; and &quot;evil&quot; figured out.  Cause really all they are is &quot;bad&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Down with the &#8220;sinful nature&#8221; and back to the &#8220;flesh&#8221;.  Anything other than that is wrong.  It gives people excuse to be pious christians who don&#8217;t take responsibility for their actions.  The body or flesh is a vessel to be filled with a spirit.  That spirit originally was the breath of Almighty God.  We choose to fill it with other things.  Now we have the advantage of the cross in which Christ conquered the flesh in the flesh and the permanant in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.  So if you are still blaming things on your sin nature&#8230;get over it!  Repent, renew your mind and work on being free!<br />
Now if we could only get the words &#8220;wicked&#8221; and &#8220;evil&#8221; figured out.  Cause really all they are is &#8220;bad&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Translating Words That Mean More Than One Thing &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-15357</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Translating Words That Mean More Than One Thing &#171; God Didn&#39;t Say That]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Oct 2009 14:52:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-15357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] example seems to be sarx in Greek (as was discussed extensively about a month ago by Peter Kirk, Clayboy, Mark Goodacre, Jason Staples and others, and again in passing yesterday by T. C. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] example seems to be sarx in Greek (as was discussed extensively about a month ago by Peter Kirk, Clayboy, Mark Goodacre, Jason Staples and others, and again in passing yesterday by T. C. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jason A. Staples</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-15123</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jason A. Staples]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Sep 2009 13:19:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-15123</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[CD-Host,

The biggest problem with using &quot;body&quot; is that Paul makes a subtle but clear distinction between &quot;flesh&quot; and &quot;body,&quot; especially in 1 Corinthians 15. Your breakdown of the three aspects of the soul is surely right, though, and the &quot;flesh&quot; is simply associated with the &quot;appetite&quot; part of the soul (the &quot;id,&quot; as it were). I still think the average English reader can get that out of &quot;flesh&quot; just as well as any other term.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>CD-Host,</p>
<p>The biggest problem with using &#8220;body&#8221; is that Paul makes a subtle but clear distinction between &#8220;flesh&#8221; and &#8220;body,&#8221; especially in 1 Corinthians 15. Your breakdown of the three aspects of the soul is surely right, though, and the &#8220;flesh&#8221; is simply associated with the &#8220;appetite&#8221; part of the soul (the &#8220;id,&#8221; as it were). I still think the average English reader can get that out of &#8220;flesh&#8221; just as well as any other term.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/09/03/niv-flesh-or-sinful-nature/#comment-15007</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:23:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3478#comment-15007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;This blog has given a bit to ponder on a very, very important issue.&lt;/i&gt;

Thanks, Doyle. We&#039;ll take that as a compliment. We really do try to raise legitimate translation issues on this blog. And we encourage civil discussion about them. There are translation solutions which can do justice to the forms and meanings of the original biblical texts as well as the forms of translation languages such as English. As Scot McKnight is blogging (see my lastest post about his series), there may not be a single &quot;right&quot; solution. There may be a variety of solutions, often with advantages and sometimes disadvantages for each one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>This blog has given a bit to ponder on a very, very important issue.</i></p>
<p>Thanks, Doyle. We&#8217;ll take that as a compliment. We really do try to raise legitimate translation issues on this blog. And we encourage civil discussion about them. There are translation solutions which can do justice to the forms and meanings of the original biblical texts as well as the forms of translation languages such as English. As Scot McKnight is blogging (see my lastest post about his series), there may not be a single &#8220;right&#8221; solution. There may be a variety of solutions, often with advantages and sometimes disadvantages for each one.</p>
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