<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: 2 Peter 1:1</title>
	<atom:link href="http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 26 May 2012 05:25:37 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rich Rhodes</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14442</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rich Rhodes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[David,
My point in suggesting that someone needs to fill out the commercial transaction frame was exactly about figuring out what the Greek means. I hesitate to use the term &lt;i&gt;exegesis&lt;/i&gt; to label what it is we do nowadays to figure out the lexical semantics and usage properties of Koine words.

On the other hand, we need to know what the English words mean as well. We often assume that because we are native speakers that we just know the English side automatically. But that&#039;s only partly true.

The trick here is that the τιμ- root covers semantic areas that are clearly distinguished in English: material worth &lt;i&gt;value&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;price&lt;/i&gt; and social worth &lt;i&gt;honor&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;rank&lt;/i&gt;. English is much more specific than Greek in these areas.

So ἰσότιμος could refer to someone of the same social status, someone equally worthy or to a thing of equal value. There is no clear presumption that the value is high. So, in fact, this passage &lt;i&gt;could&lt;/i&gt; read:

&quot;a faith that is just as good as ours&quot;

I&#039;m not necessarily advocating that, but &lt;i&gt;precious&lt;/i&gt; adds a couple of factors that can&#039;t be argued to be present in the Greek.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David,<br />
My point in suggesting that someone needs to fill out the commercial transaction frame was exactly about figuring out what the Greek means. I hesitate to use the term <i>exegesis</i> to label what it is we do nowadays to figure out the lexical semantics and usage properties of Koine words.</p>
<p>On the other hand, we need to know what the English words mean as well. We often assume that because we are native speakers that we just know the English side automatically. But that&#8217;s only partly true.</p>
<p>The trick here is that the τιμ- root covers semantic areas that are clearly distinguished in English: material worth <i>value</i> and <i>price</i> and social worth <i>honor</i> and <i>rank</i>. English is much more specific than Greek in these areas.</p>
<p>So ἰσότιμος could refer to someone of the same social status, someone equally worthy or to a thing of equal value. There is no clear presumption that the value is high. So, in fact, this passage <i>could</i> read:</p>
<p>&#8220;a faith that is just as good as ours&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not necessarily advocating that, but <i>precious</i> adds a couple of factors that can&#8217;t be argued to be present in the Greek.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David Dewey</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14437</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David Dewey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Jul 2009 09:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14437</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Before we argue over semantics in English, we surely have to decide what the Greek means, and I don&#039;t think that can be done here adequately without a degree of exegesis. Peter, a Jew is writing to predominantly Gentile readers. His point is that their (relatively new) faith is no less valuable/precious/significant than his (with all its historical freight). Their faith puts them on an equal standing before God.
Assuming the same authorship for 1 and 2 Peter, I think the way Peter uses timos gives us a clue to the compound isotimos in 2 Peter 1:1. This idea of &#039;worth&#039;is attached by Peter variously to the blood of Christ, to the promises of God, to Christ as the foundation stone of the church and to the faith of believers (compared to gold). I agree a word which suggests an objective &#039;worth&#039; would be better than one that is subjective. The worth in view here is the worth God ascribes, not the worth human beings ascribe. So, &#039;valuable&#039; over &#039;precious&#039; is, IMO, the better. But I wonder whether &#039;faith of equal worth to ours&#039; might not be better than either.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Before we argue over semantics in English, we surely have to decide what the Greek means, and I don&#8217;t think that can be done here adequately without a degree of exegesis. Peter, a Jew is writing to predominantly Gentile readers. His point is that their (relatively new) faith is no less valuable/precious/significant than his (with all its historical freight). Their faith puts them on an equal standing before God.<br />
Assuming the same authorship for 1 and 2 Peter, I think the way Peter uses timos gives us a clue to the compound isotimos in 2 Peter 1:1. This idea of &#8216;worth&#8217;is attached by Peter variously to the blood of Christ, to the promises of God, to Christ as the foundation stone of the church and to the faith of believers (compared to gold). I agree a word which suggests an objective &#8216;worth&#8217; would be better than one that is subjective. The worth in view here is the worth God ascribes, not the worth human beings ascribe. So, &#8216;valuable&#8217; over &#8216;precious&#8217; is, IMO, the better. But I wonder whether &#8216;faith of equal worth to ours&#8217; might not be better than either.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Rich Rhodes</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14434</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rich Rhodes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:15:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14434</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wayne,
To know what &lt;i&gt;isotimos&lt;/i&gt; means we need to know what its competitors are. What else could he have said. (My Greek is not good enough to do this off the top of my head.)

I have been thinking for some time now that someone needs to fill out the commercial transaction frame for Koine. I twitch at the thought. I&#039;d love to do it, but I just don&#039;t have the time.

Peter,
&lt;i&gt;Valuable&lt;/i&gt; and &lt;i&gt;precious&lt;/i&gt; are different in several ways. &lt;i&gt;Precious&lt;/i&gt;, at least in some contexts, has an personal factor, i.e., &lt;i&gt;precious to someone&lt;/i&gt;, but &lt;i&gt;valuable&lt;/i&gt; is an objective evaluation. Something can be &lt;i&gt;precious&lt;/i&gt; to someone without being particularly &lt;i&gt;valuable&lt;/i&gt;.

One way to highlight the personal vs. objective difference, is to observe that one can easily predicate &lt;i&gt;precious&lt;/i&gt; of a child (granted that was the way my grandmother spoke), but if you say they are &lt;i&gt;valuable&lt;/i&gt; it has a totally different feel, emotionally remote, maybe even a little creepy. But if you are a coach, and unrelated to the child, it&#039;s the other way around.

Grandma:
&lt;i&gt;You are so precious!&lt;/i&gt;
Weird: &lt;i&gt;You are so valuable!&lt;/i&gt;

Coach:
Weird: &lt;i&gt;You are so precious!&lt;/i&gt;
&lt;i&gt;You are so valuable!&lt;/i&gt;

In other uses &lt;i&gt;precious&lt;/i&gt; can mean &lt;i&gt;very valuable&lt;/i&gt;, as in &lt;i&gt;precious metal&lt;/i&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne,<br />
To know what <i>isotimos</i> means we need to know what its competitors are. What else could he have said. (My Greek is not good enough to do this off the top of my head.)</p>
<p>I have been thinking for some time now that someone needs to fill out the commercial transaction frame for Koine. I twitch at the thought. I&#8217;d love to do it, but I just don&#8217;t have the time.</p>
<p>Peter,<br />
<i>Valuable</i> and <i>precious</i> are different in several ways. <i>Precious</i>, at least in some contexts, has an personal factor, i.e., <i>precious to someone</i>, but <i>valuable</i> is an objective evaluation. Something can be <i>precious</i> to someone without being particularly <i>valuable</i>.</p>
<p>One way to highlight the personal vs. objective difference, is to observe that one can easily predicate <i>precious</i> of a child (granted that was the way my grandmother spoke), but if you say they are <i>valuable</i> it has a totally different feel, emotionally remote, maybe even a little creepy. But if you are a coach, and unrelated to the child, it&#8217;s the other way around.</p>
<p>Grandma:<br />
<i>You are so precious!</i><br />
Weird: <i>You are so valuable!</i></p>
<p>Coach:<br />
Weird: <i>You are so precious!</i><br />
<i>You are so valuable!</i></p>
<p>In other uses <i>precious</i> can mean <i>very valuable</i>, as in <i>precious metal</i>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14433</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 09:31:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14433</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wayne, I&#039;m confused, because to me &quot;precious&quot; and &quot;valuable&quot; are almost synonyms - except that &quot;valuable&quot; tends to refer more to monetary value which is of course not the point here. Brent seems to be contrasting the &quot;precious&quot; interpretation with HCSB&#039;s &quot;of equal privilege&quot;, which strikes me as bad English but very likely closer to the intended meaning, based on the scholarly exegesis Brent quotes &quot;having a faith of equal honor and equal privilege&quot;. I&#039;m not sure how to render that in good English - but CEV does quite well with &quot;shares with us in the privilege of believing that...&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne, I&#8217;m confused, because to me &#8220;precious&#8221; and &#8220;valuable&#8221; are almost synonyms &#8211; except that &#8220;valuable&#8221; tends to refer more to monetary value which is of course not the point here. Brent seems to be contrasting the &#8220;precious&#8221; interpretation with HCSB&#8217;s &#8220;of equal privilege&#8221;, which strikes me as bad English but very likely closer to the intended meaning, based on the scholarly exegesis Brent quotes &#8220;having a faith of equal honor and equal privilege&#8221;. I&#8217;m not sure how to render that in good English &#8211; but CEV does quite well with &#8220;shares with us in the privilege of believing that&#8230;&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14431</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Jul 2009 00:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14431</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i do worse than that.
;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i do worse than that. <img src='http://s1.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14430</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:17:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14430</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Probably, Jim, although if a &quot;c&quot; relaxes and lies on its back, it can look quite close to a &quot;v&quot;!   :-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Probably, Jim, although if a &#8220;c&#8221; relaxes and lies on its back, it can look quite close to a &#8220;v&#8221;!   <img src='http://s0.wp.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2009/07/03/2-peter-11/#comment-14429</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:50:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.com/?p=3252#comment-14429</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&#039;previous&#039; should probably be &#039;precious&#039;, right?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;previous&#8217; should probably be &#8216;precious&#8217;, right?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

