Comments on: ESV #10, by Mark Strauss

By: ESV by Mark Strauss: links to each part « Better Bibles Blog

ESV by Mark Strauss: links to each part « Better Bibles Blog — Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:31:07 +0000

[...] ESV #10, by Mark Strauss [...]

By: ESV #9, by Mark Strauss « Better Bibles Blog

ESV #9, by Mark Strauss « Better Bibles Blog — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:35:23 +0000

[...] Better Bibles Blog ideas for improving Bible translations Skip to content AboutBlog authorsVersionsLinksTerminologyBookshelfToolsBlogroll « ESV #8, by Mark Strauss ESV #10, by Mark Strauss » [...]

By: Mark Strauss on the ESV Translation of the Bible « συνεσταυρωμαι: living the crucified life

Wed, 26 Nov 2008 19:03:23 +0000

[...] IX – Awkward and Unnatural Style in the ESV Part X – Word order [...]

By: Mike Sangrey

Mike Sangrey — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:39:18 +0000

I might add that it is very easy to “see” an emphasis in Greek that isn’t there simply because we’re interpreting the Greek according to English rules. The way to work through this difficulty is to let the meaning of the paragraph guide one’s decisions. If the emphasis propels the reader’s interpretation effort toward an accurate understanding of the paragraph, then it’s a win (and very likely a correct understanding of the emphasis). If it doesn’t move the reader toward that result, then incorporating the alleged emphasis isn’t very helpful, if at all.

By: “Rue the Day?” Who Talks Like That? « Boston Bible Geeks

“Rue the Day?” Who Talks Like That? « Boston Bible Geeks — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:11:57 +0000

[...] Word Order Problems [...]

By: Mike Sangrey

Mike Sangrey — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:57:54 +0000

However, we do need to ask the question to the translation, “Has this properly captured original emphasis?” If the word order in the translation is there in order to convey a like original emphasis, then that’s a good thing. Though that still doesn’t excuse tortured English (unless the original author was making a point about tortured use of language).

Reminds me of something: Winston Churchill is attributed with this response to someone correcting his use of prepositions: “This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.”

Some might think it ironic, though actually it isn’t, this requirement for accurately translating emphasis will often mean a less literal translation. For example, the original may front the emphasized object. In English, it might be better to hold the reader in suspense until the end.

By: danny

danny — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:48:14 +0000

Thanks, Wayne. Honestly, I probably wouldn’t speak that way very often, but I can understand how someone might. Or, I’d say it differently. So, instead of “…bagels I like”, I might say “bagels- I like those.” Make sense? Anyway, thanks for answering my question.

By: Peter Kirk

Peter Kirk — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:47:13 +0000

Wayne, interestingly none of the examples you give, of fronting of an object seem to me correct good quality written English, although they are heard in conversation, and of course seen in poetry which is much more fluid in word order (and in which the fronting may be for other reasons than emphasis). In writing it would be better, at least in my dialect, to say for example “It was Mary that he kissed” or “Mary was the only one he kissed”. Even conversationally I would go for “But it’s the office gossip I really don’t like”, or else “But the office gossip – I really don’t like it” which is syntactically a quite different structure.

By: Wayne Leman

Wayne Leman — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:19:40 +0000

Danny asked:

My question is, do we actually use word order for emphasis in English?

Absolutely, we use altered word orders in English for contrast and emphasis:

1. What do you like to eat for breakfast?

2. Well, pancakes I don’t care for but bagels I like.

Another example:

“I like most aspects of my job, including the hours, pay, and compensation package. But the office gossip I really don’t like.”

And another:

1. I’ve heard that John has been kissing all the women in the office.
2. Oh, no, no. Mary he kissed, but Liz, Jennifer, and Amber he just gave pecks on the cheek.

These are simply examples I made up on the spur of the moment. I don’t know if I have ever used these word orders exactly like these, but I have used some similar to these. Perhaps others can cite examples which they have actually used or which they have seen used in written English.

Altered word order for contrast and emphasis (and probably other functions, as well) has been studied extensively by English scholars. We alter word orders automatically, to vary rhetorical effect, without thinking twice about it.

By: Wayne Leman

Wayne Leman — Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:11:02 +0000

John wrote:

I would suggest either the CSB or NKJV, depending on the textual basis for the translation you perfer.

Right, John. The (H)CSB and NKJV both follow standard English word orders. I have not yet been able to find out why the ESV team chose not to revise the RSV to standard English word orders. The NASB, which used the same base translation (ASV) as the RSV, uses standard word orders. So does the NRSV which, like the ESV, is a revision of the RSV, which is a revision of the ASV. The NKJV follows standard word orders. Each of these translations (except for the HCSB) remains within the Tyndale-KJV tradition which is one of the selling points of the ESV.