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	<title>Comments on: ESV #6, by Mark Strauss</title>
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	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11894</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 09:26:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11894</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dru, you use &quot;one&quot; correctly...amazing! There&#039;s so few left! One must say it is a rare delight to find one who knows about that old feature. : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dru, you use &#8220;one&#8221; correctly&#8230;amazing! There&#8217;s so few left! One must say it is a rare delight to find one who knows about that old feature. : )</p>
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		<title>By: ESV by Mark Strauss: links to each part &#171; Better Bibles Blog</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11646</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ESV by Mark Strauss: links to each part &#171; Better Bibles Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Nov 2008 16:17:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11646</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] ESV #6, by Mark Strauss [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] ESV #6, by Mark Strauss [...]</p>
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		<title>By: ESV #5, by Mark Strauss &#171; Better Bibles Blog</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11603</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ESV #5, by Mark Strauss &#171; Better Bibles Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11603</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Better Bibles Blog ideas for improving Bible translations   Skip to content AboutBlog&#160;authorsVersionsLinksTerminologyBookshelfToolsBlogroll     &#171; Crime Stories and Love Stories of the&#160;Bible ESV #6, by Mark&#160;Strauss &#187; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Better Bibles Blog ideas for improving Bible translations   Skip to content AboutBlog&nbsp;authorsVersionsLinksTerminologyBookshelfToolsBlogroll     &laquo; Crime Stories and Love Stories of the&nbsp;Bible ESV #6, by Mark&nbsp;Strauss &raquo; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: &#8220;Rue the Day?&#8221; Who Talks Like That? &#171; Boston Bible Geeks</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11579</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[&#8220;Rue the Day?&#8221; Who Talks Like That? &#171; Boston Bible Geeks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:08:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11579</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Collocational Clashes in the ESV [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Collocational Clashes in the ESV [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Dru</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11506</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dru]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:25:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11506</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is fascinating, and some of these examples are excellent. 
As soon as one looks at it in this context, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” sounds really mangled.

However, I&#039;d class some of the others as either a bit picky, or simply condemning one lot of translators for having different priorities to ones own (see my comment on this a few days ago).

For example, &#039;grapes gathered from thornbushes&#039;. Yes, the normal verb in modern English is &#039;picked&#039;, but &#039;gathered&#039; gives an alliteration and &#039;picked&#039; doesn&#039;t. 

My understanding is that part of the ESV&#039;s approach is to try and provide a translation which is within the descent of the AV, without being as restricted as say  the NKJV.  A phrase like “Teacher, when will these things be…?” is an example of this. I assume one of the reasons for this is so that Christians of different ages are quoting things that sound familiar to each each other. Those of us who learnt our memorised verses in older translations are not too far away from what is being read to us. One of the weaknesses of most modern translations - even the one I really like and use as my normal Bible - is that they aren&#039;t as easy to memorise as the AV or the original RSV. 

I&#039;d regard &#039;gathered&#039; as a legitimate choice, even if it isn&#039;t necessarily even the choice I&#039;d have made.

Likewise, &#039;stopping&#039; mouths. I agree that mouths are more often &#039;shut&#039;, but &#039;stopped&#039; is quite often used in various ways in normal speech. It does give a nice forceful feeling of someone putting a metaphorical plug in a mouth, rather than just closing it. Perhaps it would be better with the addition of &#039;up&#039;, but either way, I&#039;d regard this as well within the range of legitimate choice.
  
Another one, from the previous selection:-
&quot;Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven — for she loved much.”

The comment is &quot;The woman’s sins were not forgiven because she loved much (which would be salvation by works).&quot;

I do not have the knowledge of the original text to be able to judge this one, but it is important not to choose which way to translate a verse simply because the alternative doesn&#039;t fit what we would like it to say. There&#039;s quite a lot in the gospels themselves that could be interpreted as suggesting that Jesus does not make the same distinction between faith and works as we&#039;d sometimes like him to do. What for example is the &#039;correct&#039; meaning of &#039;as&#039; in &quot;Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us&#039;? 

I think it is at least possible that one of the things that brought the woman to faith was that for all her sins, she had a great capacity to love. I do not have the knowledge to be able to speak on this one, but if so, the TNIV version that is cited carries more of that flavour than the NET one. Both the AV and RSV have a simple &#039;for&#039;. Perhaps the translators of the ESV took the view that if the original is not precise enough to be able to adopt a different translation, they would stick with the conjugation in those translations unless they thought it was actually wrong! If so, again, I&#039;d say that is a legitimate choice, and should not be condemned even if it isn&#039;t necessarily the choice one would have made oneself.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is fascinating, and some of these examples are excellent.<br />
As soon as one looks at it in this context, “What is this conversation that you are holding with each other as you walk?” sounds really mangled.</p>
<p>However, I&#8217;d class some of the others as either a bit picky, or simply condemning one lot of translators for having different priorities to ones own (see my comment on this a few days ago).</p>
<p>For example, &#8216;grapes gathered from thornbushes&#8217;. Yes, the normal verb in modern English is &#8216;picked&#8217;, but &#8216;gathered&#8217; gives an alliteration and &#8216;picked&#8217; doesn&#8217;t. </p>
<p>My understanding is that part of the ESV&#8217;s approach is to try and provide a translation which is within the descent of the AV, without being as restricted as say  the NKJV.  A phrase like “Teacher, when will these things be…?” is an example of this. I assume one of the reasons for this is so that Christians of different ages are quoting things that sound familiar to each each other. Those of us who learnt our memorised verses in older translations are not too far away from what is being read to us. One of the weaknesses of most modern translations &#8211; even the one I really like and use as my normal Bible &#8211; is that they aren&#8217;t as easy to memorise as the AV or the original RSV. </p>
<p>I&#8217;d regard &#8216;gathered&#8217; as a legitimate choice, even if it isn&#8217;t necessarily even the choice I&#8217;d have made.</p>
<p>Likewise, &#8216;stopping&#8217; mouths. I agree that mouths are more often &#8216;shut&#8217;, but &#8216;stopped&#8217; is quite often used in various ways in normal speech. It does give a nice forceful feeling of someone putting a metaphorical plug in a mouth, rather than just closing it. Perhaps it would be better with the addition of &#8216;up&#8217;, but either way, I&#8217;d regard this as well within the range of legitimate choice.</p>
<p>Another one, from the previous selection:-<br />
&#8220;Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven — for she loved much.”</p>
<p>The comment is &#8220;The woman’s sins were not forgiven because she loved much (which would be salvation by works).&#8221;</p>
<p>I do not have the knowledge of the original text to be able to judge this one, but it is important not to choose which way to translate a verse simply because the alternative doesn&#8217;t fit what we would like it to say. There&#8217;s quite a lot in the gospels themselves that could be interpreted as suggesting that Jesus does not make the same distinction between faith and works as we&#8217;d sometimes like him to do. What for example is the &#8216;correct&#8217; meaning of &#8216;as&#8217; in &#8220;Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against us&#8217;? </p>
<p>I think it is at least possible that one of the things that brought the woman to faith was that for all her sins, she had a great capacity to love. I do not have the knowledge to be able to speak on this one, but if so, the TNIV version that is cited carries more of that flavour than the NET one. Both the AV and RSV have a simple &#8216;for&#8217;. Perhaps the translators of the ESV took the view that if the original is not precise enough to be able to adopt a different translation, they would stick with the conjugation in those translations unless they thought it was actually wrong! If so, again, I&#8217;d say that is a legitimate choice, and should not be condemned even if it isn&#8217;t necessarily the choice one would have made oneself.</p>
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		<title>By: mashmouth</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mashmouth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:52:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[oops/  my bad.
I apologize for not reading the clearly described section at top right of the page.  
This is a page for just that sort of thing.
Thanks for your understanding, and I shant stay long.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops/  my bad.<br />
I apologize for not reading the clearly described section at top right of the page.<br />
This is a page for just that sort of thing.<br />
Thanks for your understanding, and I shant stay long.</p>
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		<title>By: mashmouth</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11504</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[mashmouth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 07:50:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11504</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[oh my.  This takes criticism to a whole new level.  
It seems on most of those comments, I can realize and come away with the meaning of the verse in context.  Also, I will have another version generally handy.
But I comment mainly to say &quot;wow, how much time did it take you to create all these ESV bashes?&quot;  Seriously, if one doesn&#039;t care for it or prefer it, then use the one you prefer.  But if it is to show those who use the version their clear subordinate position to some other wise perspective, your point is clear.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oh my.  This takes criticism to a whole new level.<br />
It seems on most of those comments, I can realize and come away with the meaning of the verse in context.  Also, I will have another version generally handy.<br />
But I comment mainly to say &#8220;wow, how much time did it take you to create all these ESV bashes?&#8221;  Seriously, if one doesn&#8217;t care for it or prefer it, then use the one you prefer.  But if it is to show those who use the version their clear subordinate position to some other wise perspective, your point is clear.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11503</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 06:16:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11503</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you, Tiffany, for reporting the mistake in the reference. I have notified Dr. Strauss.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Tiffany, for reporting the mistake in the reference. I have notified Dr. Strauss.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Strauss on the ESV Translation of the Bible &#171; συνεσταυρωμαι: living the crucified life</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11502</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mark Strauss on the ESV Translation of the Bible &#171; συνεσταυρωμαι: living the crucified life]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 03:47:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11502</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] V - exegetical errors in the ESV.     Part VI - Collocational Clashes in the [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] V &#8211; exegetical errors in the ESV.     Part VI &#8211; Collocational Clashes in the [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Tiffany</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/23/esv-6-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11501</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tiffany]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 03:37:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2418#comment-11501</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The comment on Luke 24:47 is actually for verse 46.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The comment on Luke 24:47 is actually for verse 46.</p>
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