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	<title>Comments on: ESV #3, by Mark Strauss</title>
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	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
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		<title>By: charlene</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-24273</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[charlene]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:15:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[if you want the bible wrote in our english today but be accurate with the kjv bible. i have the kjv,&quot;all my life&quot; a njkv,esv. we are now at the church my husband grew up at and are happy now. the preacher uses the nsv, but my use to the kjv. rewriting the bible is ackward to where you wonder it you all are trying to stray from the truth and confuse people, i just want to be able to read along with my preacher and know it&#039;s the word of god, we he preaches out of the esv we read along with our kjv and he preaches as though is  speaking from the kjv.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if you want the bible wrote in our english today but be accurate with the kjv bible. i have the kjv,&#8221;all my life&#8221; a njkv,esv. we are now at the church my husband grew up at and are happy now. the preacher uses the nsv, but my use to the kjv. rewriting the bible is ackward to where you wonder it you all are trying to stray from the truth and confuse people, i just want to be able to read along with my preacher and know it&#8217;s the word of god, we he preaches out of the esv we read along with our kjv and he preaches as though is  speaking from the kjv.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11627</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:55:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Wayne, your Dickens quote sounds all too like what we are hearing in the news today!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne, your Dickens quote sounds all too like what we are hearing in the news today!</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11621</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 23:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11621</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John, I&#039;ve always considered this intro to Dicken&#039;s Tale of Two Cities to be striking English:

&quot;It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way - in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.&quot;

Note the rhythm, contrasts, poetic license starting with &quot;It&quot; when the author has not yet established which time frame &quot;it&quot; was. All of these rhetorical devices (and more) are in the toolbox of good authors.

I haven&#039;t read all of Dickens&#039; works, so I&#039;m sure I can&#039;t speak about them as well as you can.

Thanks for your comment.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I&#8217;ve always considered this intro to Dicken&#8217;s Tale of Two Cities to be striking English:</p>
<p>&#8220;It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to heaven, we were all going direct the other way &#8211; in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.&#8221;</p>
<p>Note the rhythm, contrasts, poetic license starting with &#8220;It&#8221; when the author has not yet established which time frame &#8220;it&#8221; was. All of these rhetorical devices (and more) are in the toolbox of good authors.</p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t read all of Dickens&#8217; works, so I&#8217;m sure I can&#8217;t speak about them as well as you can.</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayne Leman</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11618</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Wayne Leman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:55:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11618</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Randy asked:

&lt;i&gt;Could the copyright issues prevent the ESV from translating certain verses the way they want to for fear of being accused of having words sound too close to the way the NRSV or some other translation and thus be in violation of the copyright laws?&lt;/i&gt;

Well, copyright issues are way out of my area of training which is Bible translation and translation checking. But I would think that the issue you have raised would be at least a theoretical possibility. In practical terms, the ESV team had such a different ideological approach to translation of the Bible from the NRSV or NIV/TNIV, that I don&#039;t think there would have been much danger of their translation being so similar that there would be a risk of copyright infringement. The ESV really is just a very minor revision of the RSV (but a relative major revision theologically). The NRSV is a much more extensive revision of the RSV. And the NASB, which is probably the closest to the ESV in terms of translation philosophy, was a revision of the ASV of 1901, not the RSV, which was also a revision of the ASV of 1901. And, although the RSV and NASB used the same English base translation, their theological and textual decisions were different enough that the NASB does not read very closely to the RSV, either.

So, even though there are these relationships among these English versions, all of which are in the Tyndale-KJV tradition, there are significant enough differences in translation theory, theology, and desire to update obsolete language that there was little chance of copyright infringement problems for the ESV team. Now, if the ESV team had used the RSV as its base translation without the appropriate copyright and payment arrangement with the RSV copyright holder (National Council of Chuches), then there would definitely have been copyright infringement.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Randy asked:</p>
<p><i>Could the copyright issues prevent the ESV from translating certain verses the way they want to for fear of being accused of having words sound too close to the way the NRSV or some other translation and thus be in violation of the copyright laws?</i></p>
<p>Well, copyright issues are way out of my area of training which is Bible translation and translation checking. But I would think that the issue you have raised would be at least a theoretical possibility. In practical terms, the ESV team had such a different ideological approach to translation of the Bible from the NRSV or NIV/TNIV, that I don&#8217;t think there would have been much danger of their translation being so similar that there would be a risk of copyright infringement. The ESV really is just a very minor revision of the RSV (but a relative major revision theologically). The NRSV is a much more extensive revision of the RSV. And the NASB, which is probably the closest to the ESV in terms of translation philosophy, was a revision of the ASV of 1901, not the RSV, which was also a revision of the ASV of 1901. And, although the RSV and NASB used the same English base translation, their theological and textual decisions were different enough that the NASB does not read very closely to the RSV, either.</p>
<p>So, even though there are these relationships among these English versions, all of which are in the Tyndale-KJV tradition, there are significant enough differences in translation theory, theology, and desire to update obsolete language that there was little chance of copyright infringement problems for the ESV team. Now, if the ESV team had used the RSV as its base translation without the appropriate copyright and payment arrangement with the RSV copyright holder (National Council of Chuches), then there would definitely have been copyright infringement.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11614</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:40:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[How &quot;aweful&quot;, I made an egregious spelling error, meant &quot;awful&quot; both times. : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How &#8220;aweful&#8221;, I made an egregious spelling error, meant &#8220;awful&#8221; both times. : )</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11612</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:39:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11612</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wayne, it&#039;s interesting that you say Charles Dickens wrote good English: those of his time thought his English was aweful: reviews of his works thought his English was aweful; but his stories people liked, (including I). : )]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne, it&#8217;s interesting that you say Charles Dickens wrote good English: those of his time thought his English was aweful: reviews of his works thought his English was aweful; but his stories people liked, (including I). : )</p>
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		<title>By: ESV #2, by Mark Strauss &#171; Better Bibles Blog</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11599</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ESV #2, by Mark Strauss &#171; Better Bibles Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 22:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11599</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Better Bibles Blog ideas for improving Bible translations   Skip to content AboutBlog&#160;authorsVersionsLinksTerminologyBookshelfToolsBlogroll     &#171; Why the English Standard Version (ESV) should not become the Standard English Version, by Mark&#160;Strauss ESV #3, by Mark&#160;Strauss &#187; [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Better Bibles Blog ideas for improving Bible translations   Skip to content AboutBlog&nbsp;authorsVersionsLinksTerminologyBookshelfToolsBlogroll     &laquo; Why the English Standard Version (ESV) should not become the Standard English Version, by Mark&nbsp;Strauss ESV #3, by Mark&nbsp;Strauss &raquo; [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Bob MacDonald</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11586</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bob MacDonald]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 26 Nov 2008 18:43:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11586</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Each of these verses needs a separate thread - it is very hard to focus on anything in the presence of so much data.

Re your two psalms crits here: face for nose is definitely wrong IMO in Psalm 10. It does not cohere with the later face in the same translation in verse 11 and it thus creates a false repeated word in a genre that uses root and word repetition as an intimate part of micro and macro structures. &#039;Looking down his nose&#039; might be a starter for the verse 4.

Re the owl/cup of psalm 11:6 - this is too important a strange word to get short shrift. I rendered it &#039;offering&#039; in this context - but it needs some shrewdness given the potential to consider it a Hebrew-Greek connection to the treasure in earthen _vessel_s]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Each of these verses needs a separate thread &#8211; it is very hard to focus on anything in the presence of so much data.</p>
<p>Re your two psalms crits here: face for nose is definitely wrong IMO in Psalm 10. It does not cohere with the later face in the same translation in verse 11 and it thus creates a false repeated word in a genre that uses root and word repetition as an intimate part of micro and macro structures. &#8216;Looking down his nose&#8217; might be a starter for the verse 4.</p>
<p>Re the owl/cup of psalm 11:6 &#8211; this is too important a strange word to get short shrift. I rendered it &#8216;offering&#8217; in this context &#8211; but it needs some shrewdness given the potential to consider it a Hebrew-Greek connection to the treasure in earthen _vessel_s</p>
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		<title>By: Randy Talbot</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11523</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Randy Talbot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Nov 2008 07:30:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11523</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Wayne,
Can you comment on any copyright issues in Bible translation? Several years ago I was amazed when I read this from the World English Bible (WEB) website http://ebible.org/web/webfaq.htm 
&quot;The WEB is different enough to avoid copyright infringement, but similar enough to avoid incurring the wrath of God.&quot;
And under &quot;What kind of editing help do you want?&quot;
&quot;Wording that may inadvertently be “too close” to any copyrighted Modern English translation for too many verses in a row (thus risking charges of copyright infringement).&quot;
I would think that this would be a big obstacle in good Bible translation. Could the copyright issues prevent the ESV from translating certain verses the way they want to for fear of being accused of having words sound too close to the way the NRSV or some other translation and thus be in violation of the copyright laws?
Randy Talbot]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wayne,<br />
Can you comment on any copyright issues in Bible translation? Several years ago I was amazed when I read this from the World English Bible (WEB) website <a href="http://ebible.org/web/webfaq.htm" rel="nofollow">http://ebible.org/web/webfaq.htm</a><br />
&#8220;The WEB is different enough to avoid copyright infringement, but similar enough to avoid incurring the wrath of God.&#8221;<br />
And under &#8220;What kind of editing help do you want?&#8221;<br />
&#8220;Wording that may inadvertently be “too close” to any copyrighted Modern English translation for too many verses in a row (thus risking charges of copyright infringement).&#8221;<br />
I would think that this would be a big obstacle in good Bible translation. Could the copyright issues prevent the ESV from translating certain verses the way they want to for fear of being accused of having words sound too close to the way the NRSV or some other translation and thus be in violation of the copyright laws?<br />
Randy Talbot</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2008/11/22/esv-4-by-mark-strauss/#comment-11518</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Nov 2008 22:57:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/?p=2384#comment-11518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rich, the answer to your question is probably that in Ezekiel the reference to a new heart is part of an extended metaphor which is long and clear enough to be understood as a whole, whereas the 1 Samuel mention of a new heart is in passing and without explanation and so open to misunderstanding.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rich, the answer to your question is probably that in Ezekiel the reference to a new heart is part of an extended metaphor which is long and clear enough to be understood as a whole, whereas the 1 Samuel mention of a new heart is in passing and without explanation and so open to misunderstanding.</p>
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