<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: ESV (English Standard Version)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/</link>
	<description>ideas for improving Bible translations</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 09:55:30 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Brett</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-24148</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Nov 2011 23:28:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-24148</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Well, the ESV text has been updated (2011). Here are the changes...

http://esv.org/wp-content/uploads/misc/esv_2011_changes.swf]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the ESV text has been updated (2011). Here are the changes&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://esv.org/wp-content/uploads/misc/esv_2011_changes.swf" rel="nofollow">http://esv.org/wp-content/uploads/misc/esv_2011_changes.swf</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Gerry Teigrob</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-17494</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Gerry Teigrob]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Jun 2010 04:13:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-17494</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have used my ESV on and off since November of last year, and to me nothing gets lost in this translation. If anyone wants to question meanings like Wayne or others do, I guess my two years of Bible School training and ability to interpret help me to pick up any Bible version such as the ESV and make it a pleasurable experience. I tend to catch more typos in the church bulletin than the Bible versions...so if you can&#039;t understand it I suggest you consider the TNIV,  NLT, or The Message - the gospel message is simple enough so that children can understand it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have used my ESV on and off since November of last year, and to me nothing gets lost in this translation. If anyone wants to question meanings like Wayne or others do, I guess my two years of Bible School training and ability to interpret help me to pick up any Bible version such as the ESV and make it a pleasurable experience. I tend to catch more typos in the church bulletin than the Bible versions&#8230;so if you can&#8217;t understand it I suggest you consider the TNIV,  NLT, or The Message &#8211; the gospel message is simple enough so that children can understand it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. K. Gayle</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15008</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. K. Gayle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 15:28:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15008</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joel notes: &lt;i&gt;There’s also a word&lt;/i&gt; meros&lt;i&gt;, whose meaning intersects significantly with &lt;/i&gt;melos&lt;i&gt;.&lt;/i&gt;

Plato used these two words interchangeably, it seems, or at least collocatively for playful emphasis:  

[τὰ] &lt;b&gt;μέλη&lt;/b&gt; [τε] καὶ [ἅμα] &lt;b&gt;μέρη&lt;/b&gt;

(&lt;i&gt;Philebus&lt;/i&gt; 14e, &lt;i&gt;Timaeus&lt;/i&gt; 77a, &lt;i&gt;Laws&lt;/i&gt; 795e, &lt;i&gt;Phaedrus&lt;/i&gt; 238a, &lt;i&gt;Ion&lt;/i&gt; 14a)

&quot;&lt;b&gt;parts&lt;/b&gt; and &lt;b&gt;pieces&lt;/b&gt; also&quot;?  

&quot;the &lt;b&gt;members&lt;/b&gt; and likewise the &lt;b&gt;parts&lt;/b&gt;&quot; is how commentator Robert Gregg Bury and then translator Benjamin Jowett render the phrase in the &lt;i&gt;Philebus&lt;/i&gt;.

I really like how Seth Benardete puts the whole clause in the &lt;i&gt;Philebus&lt;/i&gt;:

&quot;...whenever someone divides up in speech the &lt;b&gt;limbs&lt;/b&gt; and different &lt;b&gt;parts&lt;/b&gt; of each thing... &quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel notes: <i>There’s also a word</i> meros<i>, whose meaning intersects significantly with </i>melos<i>.</i></p>
<p>Plato used these two words interchangeably, it seems, or at least collocatively for playful emphasis:  </p>
<p>[τὰ] <b>μέλη</b> [τε] καὶ [ἅμα] <b>μέρη</b></p>
<p>(<i>Philebus</i> 14e, <i>Timaeus</i> 77a, <i>Laws</i> 795e, <i>Phaedrus</i> 238a, <i>Ion</i> 14a)</p>
<p>&#8220;<b>parts</b> and <b>pieces</b> also&#8221;?  </p>
<p>&#8220;the <b>members</b> and likewise the <b>parts</b>&#8221; is how commentator Robert Gregg Bury and then translator Benjamin Jowett render the phrase in the <i>Philebus</i>.</p>
<p>I really like how Seth Benardete puts the whole clause in the <i>Philebus</i>:</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;whenever someone divides up in speech the <b>limbs</b> and different <b>parts</b> of each thing&#8230; &#8220;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15005</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 13:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15005</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure.

In (the particularly gruesome) Judges 19:29, the word is used very generally for &quot;part.&quot;  The concubine is cut up into 12 &lt;I&gt;mele,&lt;/i&gt; surely just &quot;parts.&quot;  In Leviticus, animals are cut into &lt;I&gt;mele.&lt;/i&gt;

But even if the word came to mean specifically &quot;body parts,&quot; I think that as a matter of translation we still need &quot;parts&quot; in English.  I don&#039;t see how &quot;body parts&quot; will work.

(There&#039;s also a word &lt;I&gt;meros,&lt;/i&gt; whose meaning intersects significantly with &lt;i&gt;melos.&lt;/i&gt;  I wonder if they are variants of the same thing, or (as happens sometimes) if &lt;i&gt;melos&lt;/I&gt; came to mean what it did partly because it sounded like &lt;I&gt;meros.&lt;/I&gt;)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure.</p>
<p>In (the particularly gruesome) Judges 19:29, the word is used very generally for &#8220;part.&#8221;  The concubine is cut up into 12 <i>mele,</i> surely just &#8220;parts.&#8221;  In Leviticus, animals are cut into <i>mele.</i></p>
<p>But even if the word came to mean specifically &#8220;body parts,&#8221; I think that as a matter of translation we still need &#8220;parts&#8221; in English.  I don&#8217;t see how &#8220;body parts&#8221; will work.</p>
<p>(There&#8217;s also a word <i>meros,</i> whose meaning intersects significantly with <i>melos.</i>  I wonder if they are variants of the same thing, or (as happens sometimes) if <i>melos</i> came to mean what it did partly because it sounded like <i>meros.</i>)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Peter Kirk</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15003</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Kirk]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 08:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15003</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Consider also 1 Corinthians 12:12-26 which explicitly lists body parts which are described as &lt;i&gt;mele&lt;/i&gt;: feet, hands, ears, eyes, also implicitly male members. At least here a word is needed which can refer to all of these, and &quot;body part&quot; is probably the only one.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Consider also 1 Corinthians 12:12-26 which explicitly lists body parts which are described as <i>mele</i>: feet, hands, ears, eyes, also implicitly male members. At least here a word is needed which can refer to all of these, and &#8220;body part&#8221; is probably the only one.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15001</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 23:39:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15001</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think it just means &quot;parts,&quot; maybe specifically &quot;organs,&quot; but I&#039;m not even sure of that. I don&#039;t like &quot;body parts&quot; because that doesn&#039;t mean what it seems like it should --- it generally excludes internal organs, and I think that the Greek word included organs.

Either way, I think Romans 12:4-5 locks us into &quot;parts&quot; for a translation.  I can&#039;t think of any other word that will make it possible to translate the imagery well:  For just as in one body &lt;i&gt;[soma]&lt;/i&gt; we have many &lt;I&gt;[polus]&lt;/i&gt; parts &lt;I&gt;[melos]&lt;/i&gt; and not all parts &lt;I&gt;[melos]&lt;/i&gt; do the same thing, so we, though many &lt;I&gt;[polus],&lt;/i&gt; are one body &lt;i&gt;[soma]&lt;/i&gt; through Christ, and each part &lt;I&gt;[melos]&lt;/i&gt; of the other.
 
I think the Greek order:

&lt;I&gt;soma ... polus ... melos ... melos ... polus ... soma ... melos&lt;/i&gt;

is part of the poetry.  It&#039;s classic antimetabole (ABC//CBA) with the middle word repeated at the end for poetic force.  And with &quot;parts&quot; we can capture this in English (&quot;body ... many ... parts ... parts ... many ... body ... parts&quot;).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think it just means &#8220;parts,&#8221; maybe specifically &#8220;organs,&#8221; but I&#8217;m not even sure of that. I don&#8217;t like &#8220;body parts&#8221; because that doesn&#8217;t mean what it seems like it should &#8212; it generally excludes internal organs, and I think that the Greek word included organs.</p>
<p>Either way, I think Romans 12:4-5 locks us into &#8220;parts&#8221; for a translation.  I can&#8217;t think of any other word that will make it possible to translate the imagery well:  For just as in one body <i>[soma]</i> we have many <i>[polus]</i> parts <i>[melos]</i> and not all parts <i>[melos]</i> do the same thing, so we, though many <i>[polus],</i> are one body <i>[soma]</i> through Christ, and each part <i>[melos]</i> of the other.</p>
<p>I think the Greek order:</p>
<p><i>soma &#8230; polus &#8230; melos &#8230; melos &#8230; polus &#8230; soma &#8230; melos</i></p>
<p>is part of the poetry.  It&#8217;s classic antimetabole (ABC//CBA) with the middle word repeated at the end for poetic force.  And with &#8220;parts&#8221; we can capture this in English (&#8220;body &#8230; many &#8230; parts &#8230; parts &#8230; many &#8230; body &#8230; parts&#8221;).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. K. Gayle</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15000</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. K. Gayle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-15000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joel,

Do you think that Paul means &quot;limbs&quot;?  Ann Nyland likes &quot;body parts&quot; for the word in Romans.  I think her English works for Callirhoe as well (as in “Then, stretching her body parts, she began to stir&quot;).  What best English would you propose?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joel,</p>
<p>Do you think that Paul means &#8220;limbs&#8221;?  Ann Nyland likes &#8220;body parts&#8221; for the word in Romans.  I think her English works for Callirhoe as well (as in “Then, stretching her body parts, she began to stir&#8221;).  What best English would you propose?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14999</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 21:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14999</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[J.K. Gayle,

I don&#039;t think anyone is doubting what the Greek means.  The question is how best to render it in English.  &quot;Member&quot; doesn&#039;t seem to do the trick.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>J.K. Gayle,</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think anyone is doubting what the Greek means.  The question is how best to render it in English.  &#8220;Member&#8221; doesn&#8217;t seem to do the trick.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: J. K. Gayle</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14997</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J. K. Gayle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 20:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14997</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The word Paul uses (i.e., &lt;b&gt;&lt;i&gt;mel*&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/b&gt;) is the same one Chariton uses at around the same time --&gt;

compare:

μηδὲ παριστάνετε τὰ &lt;b&gt;μέλη&lt;/b&gt; ὑμῶν ὅπλα ἀδικίας τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ· ... καὶ τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν ὅπλα δικαιοσύνης τῷ θεῷ. (Romans 6:13 )

ἔπειτα κινεῖν ἤρξατο κατὰ &lt;b&gt;μέλη&lt;/b&gt; τὸ σῶμα (Callirhoe 1.8:1.4)

G.P. Goold translates the latter, &quot;Then she began to stir, limb by limb.&quot;  And of course, &quot;she&quot; is Callirhoe who has no male-only member.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The word Paul uses (i.e., <b><i>mel*</i></b>) is the same one Chariton uses at around the same time &#8211;&gt;</p>
<p>compare:</p>
<p>μηδὲ παριστάνετε τὰ <b>μέλη</b> ὑμῶν ὅπλα ἀδικίας τῇ ἁμαρτίᾳ· &#8230; καὶ τὰ μέλη ὑμῶν ὅπλα δικαιοσύνης τῷ θεῷ. (Romans 6:13 )</p>
<p>ἔπειτα κινεῖν ἤρξατο κατὰ <b>μέλη</b> τὸ σῶμα (Callirhoe 1.8:1.4)</p>
<p>G.P. Goold translates the latter, &#8220;Then she began to stir, limb by limb.&#8221;  And of course, &#8220;she&#8221; is Callirhoe who has no male-only member.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Joel</title>
		<link>http://betterbibles.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14991</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joel]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Sep 2009 13:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://betterbibles.wordpress.com/2005/04/12/esv-english-standard-version/#comment-14991</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
Romans 6:13 ESV
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

This is a great example.  At best, &quot;member&quot; for &lt;I&gt;melos&lt;/i&gt; belongs to a dialect that no one I know speaks.  At worst, it sounds like the pornographic spam I keep getting.

-&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.GodDidntSayThat.com&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Joel&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Romans 6:13 ESV<br />
13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness.
</p></blockquote>
<p>This is a great example.  At best, &#8220;member&#8221; for <i>melos</i> belongs to a dialect that no one I know speaks.  At worst, it sounds like the pornographic spam I keep getting.</p>
<p>-<a href="http://www.GodDidntSayThat.com" rel="nofollow">Joel</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

